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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://amechanicalart.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/infant-mortality-then-and-now.html?m=1

Demographers estimate that approximately 2% of all live births in England at this time would die in the first day of life. By the end of the first week, a cumulative total of 5% would die. Another 3 or 4% would die within the month.
This is between 1580 and 1620 roughly.

Unless babies had Heb B, the vaccine at birth wouldn't have helped. Unlikely that death at birth was due to either whooping cough or flu, so vaccines during pregnancy don't seem to be relevant, either. First big round of vaccines in the US comes at 2 months of age, by which point more than 8 or 9 percent of all babies born would have died and it is fairly unlikely that vaccines would have saved any of them. Well, perhaps one or two...but the vast majority of mothers would have been able to pass on immunity to whooping cough because anyone who made it to adulthood was a survivor.

So what are some of the reasons for the very horrendous death rate?

Dangers of childbirth for mother and baby. If the mother died in childbirth, the chances of survival for the baby were very low. Roughly 1/3 of women died during their child-bearing years.

Filthy living conditions.

Overcrowding.

Lack of medical care. Generally the medical care of the time was quite dangerous, so getting medical care probably wasn't much help. However, conditions that can be treated today would have quickly proved fatal. I'm thinking, for example, of congenital heart conditions and so on.

If someone invented a time-machine, zipped back to 1600 and secretly slipped vaccines into a test population of 1000 women and babies based on today's schedule, would the death rate have gone down at all in that group? Unlikely. They had much bigger problems than a vaccine deficiency.
 

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This thread reminds me of the scene in "The Life of Brian": "what did the Romans ever do for us?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

For those who dislike movies (I sympathise) here's the short version:

"All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
 

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This thread reminds me of the scene in "The Life of Brian": "what did the Romans ever do for us?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso

For those who dislike movies (I sympathise) here's the short version:

"All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
It did remind me of that, too, lol.

Despite being a wicked hateful selfish non-vaxxer.

But, returning to the original question, it IS very difficult to suss out how many of which Public health innovations contributed to what. A couple of years ago we read a book called The Ghost Map Which detailed a fascinating story of a cholera epidemic in 1854, and its connection to London's water system. It's hard for people living under modern conditions to appreciate how many ways to be ill there were. At the same time, modern medicine has changed enough medical outcomes that our population is significantly altered over a representative Middle Ages one.

My mother often told me about being vaccinated...lining up with hundreds of others to get a shot at a NYC police station. Having grown up in a world with widespread polio, she was thrilled and grateful. I was of the generation to have the polio vaccine presente to us, in school, as pink drops on sugar cubes. I doubt anyone even asked our parents, lol, but none of them would have objected.

But, both as parents and as citizens, we make judgements based on our own knowledge, knowing it's never complete. Scary, isn't it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Well, I also was a child during the great polio epidemics. Never got vaccinated. My parents were firmly opposed and, as it happened, all 5 of us and my parents were fine. Plus, of course, I didn't get exposed to SV-40, another plus.

Can't credit the doctors with the sanitation stuff. That was a combination of the Progressives and the engineers. Doctors fought sanitation quite hard, and when they did push for cleaning things up, they did it the wrong way. The great cholera epidemics in London were largely due to the miasma theory of disease. Oh well.

Most of the doctors weren't hugely concerned about living conditions, poverty or malnutrition, either. And some of the doctors who did join the Progressives or other social movements to improve life for the lower classes got dumped on as radicals and troublemakers.

I knew a woman doctor who was the head of the White Rose group in Hamburg as a young woman. She was captured by the Nazis and sent to prison (not to a concentration camp). In prison she was surrounded by many prostitutes, who were being treated for syphilis...with mercury injections. I asked her if the treatment worked. She had no idea. But by the time the war ended antibiotics had replaced mercury as the treatment for syphilis and research on the horrendous consequences of mercury sort of slid out of sight. Why spend a lot of time looking at past disasters, much less admitting them? She went on to study medicine and emigrate to the United States, marry, have four children and live a very long and interesting life. Practicing, of course, alternative medicine.

On the Romans? They also practiced the most brutal forms of slavery imaginable, imposed heavy taxes (remember that trip to Bethlehem?), destroyed thousands of human beings and animals in arenas as a form of light entertainment...but they sure built great roads, had decent sanitation systems, fairly good medical care (got it from the Greeks) and, considering the reality of how subsistence empires function, a high rate of literacy.

I like living in the modern world, but we could learn a lot from some of the more "primitive" cultures about sustainable agriculture and what constitutes a healthy diet and lifestyle.
 

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I want to start a thread titled Evidence!, but don't have the gravitas, Without saying (pun being i'll say it anyway) mine would be 1 in 45 with autism. Would be great if could highlight Allergies, ADHD, diabetes, autoimmune of any sort.
 

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Sorry, not sure why it's coming up so big and not sure how to fix it.
 

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There needs to be more documentation on graphs/statistics. Perhaps a system that has a numbering system that isn't a cipher. These mitigations need to be in place, otherwise graphs and statics are not legit to me. Anyone can put ranges, rates, graphs and numerical presentations together.

If it was something with more of a backbone then I would have no quarter with it.

IE: Name, Age, Town/City

That way if there needs to be an investigation, finding that person in this time, no problem.
 
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