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http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahae...nd-of-doctor-fires-vaccine-refusing-patients/
A number of stories published in the midst of the Disneyland measles outbreak last winter looked at the trend of doctors, particularly pediatricians, “firing” families that refused vaccines for their children. The practice remains controversial among pediatricians but relevant enough that a recent session at the American Academy of Pediatrics Annual Conference addressed how pediatricians can legally protect themselves when parents refuse vaccines and the most appropriate way to dismiss a family from the practice, even though the AAP discourages such dismissals.

Now a new study in Pediatrics today takes a closer look at the pediatricians who are more likely to sever the doctor-patient relationship as a result of parental vaccine refusal. In a survey of 534 pediatricians and family physicians (a 66% response rate), a large majority (83%) said they have at least one family refuse at least one vaccine in a typical month, and more than half (63%) said 1% to 4% of parents refused vaccines. More disturbing, one in five said at least 5% of parents refused vaccines.
 

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Considering that doctor's offices are hot-beds for spreading infectious illnesses, perhaps they need to do more than just harass the unvaxed? http://www.today.com/health/taking-your-healthy-kids-doctor-may-make-them-sick-2D12110565

Children and their families had a 3.2 percent increase in flu-like infections after a child 6 or under went to a well-child visit, according to the survey data. While that increase seems small, experts estimate it amounts to about 700,000 cases of preventable flu-like infections each year.
Gosh. Makes Disneyland look like a minor problem for sure...
 

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The asshole kind?

I have no use for a person who would refuse medical care for a child because their parents refused to comply with one of their directives.

The unvaxxed are not a risk to your patients....most VAD are quite rare, and the ones that aren't rare...well, they have issues with the vaccine which mean the vaxxed can still get and/or transmit the disease in huge numbers.

There are so many things that could be done to make waiting rooms safer - excluding the unvaxxed falls pretty low on the list (if it is on the list at all). The refusal to take common sense measures such as well/sick waiting rooms, asking patients to wear masks, getting rid of toys, handing out buzzers and encouraging people to wait in their cars, etc, etc, means it is not about safety. Allowing people who smoke in your practice (who, if IIRC, get twice the infections of non smokers) while banning the unvaxxed says this is more about discrimination of a group you just do not like versus genuine concern for patient welfare.
 

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Dr. Chris Hickie, of Tucson said, after having a child come into his waiting room (no mention of whether or not he had/no has a sick/healthy waiting room or any other measures he/his office takes to reduce transmission of illness) coughing with pertussis, "Thankfully my waiting room was not crowded and no infants were present, but the episode helped me realize that spread of vaccine-preventable disease via my waiting room is much more likely to happen if there are electively non-vaccinating families in my practice."

Tell us, dear doctor, how do diseases among those with medical exemptions spread differently? Also, have you heard about how pertussis is going around among the vaccinated?

According to his bio on his practice website, he's a PhD in neuroscience. I wonder if he heard about that new discovery earlier this year of the brain's direction connection to the gut.

Sus
 

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Yet they acknowledge we just don’t have enough research in this area. In fact, no studies at all have looked at how pediatrics policies of dismissing families affects uptake of vaccines. Given the concerns about pockets of under-immunized children and the recent outbreaks, researchers clearly need to get on the ball.
They also haven't done enough research as to why those NOT refusing the MMR is causing whopping loads of fully vaccinated college students to double numbers of mumps in specific states from last year, so they "clearly need to get on the ball."

Such BS.
 

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The asshole kind?

I have no use for a person who would refuse medical care for a child because their parents refused to comply with one of their directives.
I have no use for those who support these kinds of Dr.'s!

History has shown how those who discriminate end up on the wrong side. Those who would not go to a doctor that treated people of a certain color, ethnic reason, religious reason, those who would not let a female doctor treat them, those who wanted nothing to do with doctors that treated AIDS patients, I see this as exactly the same! The new discrimination!

It says lot IMO on those who want and go to doctors like this. If you are so frightened by those who might be sitting in the same waiting room as you and having a VPD you really do need to see a doctor and not a ped! Vaccine do fail, we hear this each and every time someone who is PRO wants to excuse someone who was vaccinated and later contracted that disease, they don't see these types of doctors? How odd! Vaccine failure happens to those who are vaccinated!

If this is what you think is the graven illness floating around in a doctor's offices, you really can buy into thinking vaccines do it all!
 

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What if the situation was reversed?

There are some doctors out there (often chiropractors and naturopaths, but also some MDs and DOs) who see children as patients and believe that vaccination is harmful. Let's say that the overwhelming majority of patients who see this doctor choose not to vaccinate. The patients believe that vaccinated people are a threat to the health of unvaccinated people due shedding and transmission of the diseases those people have been vaccinated against.

Do you support the choice of that doctor to not accept patients who insist on vaccines for themselves and their children? Does requiring vaccinated patients to always use the sick waiting room whether or not they are sick adequately address parental concerns about shedding and disease transmission, or would such a measure put the unvaccinated sick patients at risk due to the presence of vaccinated patients? Is a doctor who refuses to vaccinate his patients because he does not believe in the benefits of vaccination guilty of denying medical care to patients who want to be vaccinated because they believe that vaccines are effective in preventing disease? Should a doctor have to vaccinate his patients regardless of his beliefs because, after all, he works for his patients and should not try to control their access to medical care?

And what kind of trust forms the basis of the doctor-patient relationship when the patient (or patient's guardian) not only dismisses the doctor's opinion regarding the dangers of vaccines, but feels that the doctor's unwillingness to vaccinate puts their (or their child's) health in danger? Why would a patient who believes strongly in the benefits of vaccination insist on a relationship with a doctor who believes equally strongly in the dangers of vaccination? Wouldn't it make more sense for the patient to seek medical care from a doctor who shares their beliefs?

I support parental choice when it comes to whether or not parents vaccinate their children based on what they believe is in the best interest of their children. For the same reasons that I support parental choice, I also support the choice of doctors to exclude vaccinated or unvaccinated patients from their practice based on their belief about what is in the best interest of their patients. Patients have the power to choose doctors who will best meet the needs of their families. I see no reason to insist on choosing a medical practitioner whose beliefs about what is essential medical care are opposite to yours.
 

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What if the situation was reversed?

There are some doctors out there (often chiropractors and naturopaths, but also some MDs and DOs) who see children as patients and believe that vaccination is harmful. Let's say that the overwhelming majority of patients who see this doctor choose not to vaccinate. The patients believe that vaccinated people are a threat to the health of unvaccinated people due shedding and transmission of the diseases those people have been vaccinated against.
.

I would not give my money to a practice or person I found discriminatory. I would not use a chiropractor or naturopath who refused to see vaxxed patients because the bulk of his clients are misinformed about the dangers of vaccination with regards to shedding.


I expect medical personnel to rise above mob mentality, and even to educate people on real risks (that a person shedding post vaccination is unlikely to be any risk to you; that you are more likely to win the lottery twice than get certain VAD in a waiting room in the USA)
 

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What if the situation was reversed?

There are some doctors out there (often chiropractors and naturopaths, but also some MDs and DOs) who see children as patients and believe that vaccination is harmful. Let's say that the overwhelming majority of patients who see this doctor choose not to vaccinate. The patients believe that vaccinated people are a threat to the health of unvaccinated people due shedding and transmission of the diseases those people have been vaccinated against.

Do you support the choice of that doctor to not accept patients who insist on vaccines for themselves and their children? Does requiring vaccinated patients to always use the sick waiting room whether or not they are sick adequately address parental concerns about shedding and disease transmission, or would such a measure put the unvaccinated sick patients at risk due to the presence of vaccinated patients? Is a doctor who refuses to vaccinate his patients because he does not believe in the benefits of vaccination guilty of denying medical care to patients who want to be vaccinated because they believe that vaccines are effective in preventing disease? Should a doctor have to vaccinate his patients regardless of his beliefs because, after all, he works for his patients and should not try to control their access to medical care?

And what kind of trust forms the basis of the doctor-patient relationship when the patient (or patient's guardian) not only dismisses the doctor's opinion regarding the dangers of vaccines, but feels that the doctor's unwillingness to vaccinate puts their (or their child's) health in danger? Why would a patient who believes strongly in the benefits of vaccination insist on a relationship with a doctor who believes equally strongly in the dangers of vaccination? Wouldn't it make more sense for the patient to seek medical care from a doctor who shares their beliefs?

I support parental choice when it comes to whether or not parents vaccinate their children based on what they believe is in the best interest of their children. For the same reasons that I support parental choice, I also support the choice of doctors to exclude vaccinated or unvaccinated patients from their practice based on their belief about what is in the best interest of their patients. Patients have the power to choose doctors who will best meet the needs of their families. I see no reason to insist on choosing a medical practitioner whose beliefs about what is essential medical care are opposite to yours.
Interestingly, there were members in another thread just today arguing that naturopaths were equivalent to regular medical doctors/pediatricians. If that's true, why not just use them and leave those sheeple pediatricians who have clearly drunk the western medicine koolaid by believing in things like antibiotics and vaccines alone and stick to using your flower remedies, enemas, and essential oils? They're just as good right?

(note: I have no idea what your stance on vaccines are so this is not necessarily directed at you. All "yours" are general)
 

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I'll just continue to point out that doctor's offices are currently hotbeds of disease distribution in many cases. So it is incredibly hypocritical for any doctor to claim that discrimination about vaccine choices has anything to do with protecting vulnerable patients.

If they really cared about protecting vulnerable patients they would take effective actions to limit or eliminate the sharing of illness in their waiting rooms.

This is about harassment of the non-conformist folks.

Especially as most doctors do not encounter the "hard-line" never a single vaccine crew. What they run into is a worried parent who wants to do a bit of delaying or maybe even skip one or two vaccines. Kicking out such families is a good way to push them into the real anti-vaccine camp. Such a smart move.

Let's imagine a likely scenario. Parents are concerned about vaccine safety and ask the doctor if they can spread out the vaccines. Doctor says: "absolutely not, in my practice everyone does the CDC RECOMMENDED schedule or they are out." Parents cave and start vaxing. Baby reacts badly to the two month vaccines with fever, crying, days of fussing and misery. Parents are very upset and ask the doctor if they can delay the next round of vaccines and give fewer vaccines at one time. Doctor once again does the hardline rant. Parents pick up the baby and leave. They find a doctor who is more tolerant and start spreading out the vaccines. Baby continues to react with fever, crying and fussing. They spread the vaccines out more and more and start skipping, start researching, eventually become hard-core anti-vaxers.

Parents will tolerate the hard-line approach only so long as their baby can survive it.
 

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I would not give my money to a practice or person I found discriminatory. I would not use a chiropractor or naturopath who refused to see vaxxed patients because the bulk of his clients are misinformed about the dangers of vaccination with regards to shedding.


I expect medical personnel to rise above mob mentality, and even to educate people on real risks (that a person shedding post vaccination is unlikely to be any risk to you; that you are more likely to win the lottery twice than get certain VAD in a waiting room in the USA)
To clarify, in the hypothetical situation I proposed, the doctor (naturopath, chiropractor, MD, or DO) refuses to see vaccinated patients because the doctor believes that vaccination is harmful. There are doctors who promote ideas such as vaccine shedding being a legitimate cause for concern (Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, DO, and Dr. Suzanne Humphries, MD, among others, espouse this belief). There are doctors who believe that vaccination is harmful to their patients.

So I am proposing a situation in which there is a doctor who truly believes that vaccination is not in his patients' best interest. Assume this is a doctor who shares the views advocated by Drs. Tenpenny and Humphries and believes that his patients' concerns about shedding and disease transmission by vaccinated patients are legitimate rather than a doctor who knows better and is simply caving in to a mob mentality.
 

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Interestingly, there were members in another thread just today arguing that naturopaths were equivalent to regular medical doctors/pediatricians. If that's true, why not just use them and leave those sheeple pediatricians who have clearly drunk the western medicine koolaid by believing in things like antibiotics and vaccines alone and stick to using your flower remedies, enemas, and essential oils? They're just as good right?

Well, lets start with fact insurance covers allopathic doctors, and often does not naturopaths.




I don't think anyone was trying to say a Naturopathic doctor was the equivalent of an allopathic doctor. They clearly do different things, have somewhat different training, etc. I personally am a big fan of using allopathic medicine for things allopathic medicine does well, and using a licensed naturopath if you can afford it for the stuff it does well.


Naturopathic doctors do call themselves doctors of naturopathy. I did briefly wonder if they were co-opting the word. The dictionary definition says no. A doctor is a person who is licenced to practice medicine. A naturopath in Ontario is licenced to practice medicine - they can call themselves a doctor if they want to, but due to common usage of the word, they should stick naturopath before or after it.
 

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To clarify, in the hypothetical situation I proposed, the doctor (naturopath, chiropractor, MD, or DO) refuses to see vaccinated patients because the doctor believes that vaccination is harmful. There are doctors who promote ideas such as vaccine shedding being a legitimate cause for concern (Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, DO, and Dr. Suzanne Humphries, MD, among others, espouse this belief). There are doctors who believe that vaccination is harmful to their patients.

So I am proposing a situation in which there is a doctor who truly believes that vaccination is not in his patients' best interest. Assume this is a doctor who shares the views advocated by Drs. Tenpenny and Humphries and believes that his patients' concerns about shedding and disease transmission by vaccinated patients are legitimate rather than a doctor who knows better and is simply caving in to a mob mentality.
In the real world, the doctors who are advocating and practicing discrimination are the vaccine enthusiasts.

If you want to discuss hypotheticals, we would love to have some brainstorming over on the thread discussing the absence of mumps hysteria in the mainstream media despite multiple outbreaks.
 

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I'm guessing a good deal of the naturopaths' patients have vaccinated at some point; that's why the patients are seeing the naturopath. :wink:
So for the naturopath it would be cutting off their nose to spite their face by barring vaccinating patients. Where I live the Children's Hospital has an Integrative Program that includes Naturopaths, Traditional Chinese Medicine and other CAM therapies. So does the cancer hospital. I think most people here where I live are pretty open to Naturopaths and CAM. And I think the same goes for Europe/UK.
 

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There is also the weird concept of tolerating differences.

Where alternative practioners may draw the line is at actually giving vaccines. They may tell patients to visit the Health Department or some other setting where they can get the vaccines they want for themselves or their children.

I remember Hilary Butler saying that if a parent is really scared of a particular disease or of multiple diseases they should vaccinate. I don't remember all of the background, but I think it works the same way for parents who are really concerned about particular vaccines. If a vaccine gives you huge concerns, why give it to your baby? If you are really scared and concerned about whooping cough, why not vaccinate if you think it will help?

Vaccines are the standard of care right now, so even counseling patients/parents to consider carefully before vaccinating can get a doctor into trouble. On the other hand, I don't think that deviating from the CDC recommended schedule is likely to get a doctor into a huge mess, especially if they are paying attention to the patient's/parents concerns or if the baby has had some sort of reactions, or possible reactions.

This whole "study" strikes me as just another round of vaccine marketing strategy development.
 
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It's more than likely that these doctors who kick out non-vaccinating parents are under some sort of quota contract where non-vaccinating parents will cost them bonuses.

Because if it was truly about the health of children and others, you'd read stories about doctors kicking out parents who feed their children a steady diet of processed crap and refined sugar. And family doctors, heart and lung doctors would be kicking out the smokers.
 
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