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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Was is a specific incident?

What exactly is your fear that vaccines do?

Is there a specific ingredient you are bothered by?

Do you believe there is a concerted, conscious effort to push unsafe vaccines?

What is your goal as a vaccine critic?

If you lived somewhere where vaccine preventable disease were endemic, would you vaccinate?


Thanks for helping me understand your positions :)
 

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I was born into an alternative health, non-vaccinating family. My parents didn't even vaccinate us against POLIO. I'm quite glad about this. SV-40 and all that.

So I grew up in a time when these illnesses were common. Everyone got measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox and more. I can remember having measles. And mumps.

When I became a mother I didn't vaccinate my daughter. Eventually I did give her a very few vaccines when she was 7 or 8 years old. Her health deteriorated (possibly a coincidence), but it wasn't a convincing outcome, I have to say.

I didn't start seriously looking at vaccines until my daughter was pregnant. She called me up and asked me about our family thing of not vaxing. I admitted I didn't know much about it. I said I was willing to research and that is what turned me into a serious vaccine critic rather than a casual one.

In addition to the weak science supporting vaccination (and I have read a fair number of studies) other reasons I'm doubtful are the tendency of public health authorities to lie about stuff.

For example, anyone reading the public pages of the CDC about vaccines and comparing the info to the actual stats and stuff in the Pink Book is going to have to wonder about the probity of this organization. They can't even keep their stories straight!

I do wonder how much longer the vaccine pushers are going to be able to paper over all the problems.

I also think the HPV vaccines were a huge mistake. Mass vaccination of populations that can report how they are feeling, with a fast-tracked experimental vaccine made with recombinant technology and with a high rate of reactions in the original studies...just asking for trouble.

Are there really people who buy the mass hysteria explanation? Or the sudden abandonment of science by the Japanese explanation?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I was born into an alternative health, non-vaccinating family. My parents didn't even vaccinate us against POLIO. I'm quite glad about this. SV-40 and all that.

So I grew up in a time when these illnesses were common. Everyone got measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox and more. I can remember having measles. And mumps.

When I became a mother I didn't vaccinate my daughter. Eventually I did give her a very few vaccines when she was 7 or 8 years old. Her health deteriorated (possibly a coincidence), but it wasn't a convincing outcome, I have to say.

I didn't start seriously looking at vaccines until my daughter was pregnant. She called me up and asked me about our family thing of not vaxing. I admitted I didn't know much about it. I said I was willing to research and that is what turned me into a serious vaccine critic rather than a casual one.

In addition to the weak science supporting vaccination (and I have read a fair number of studies) other reasons I'm doubtful are the tendency of public health authorities to lie about stuff.

For example, anyone reading the public pages of the CDC about vaccines and comparing the info to the actual stats and stuff in the Pink Book is going to have to wonder about the probity of this organization. They can't even keep their stories straight!

I do wonder how much longer the vaccine pushers are going to be able to paper over all the problems.

I also think the HPV vaccines were a huge mistake. Mass vaccination of populations that can report how they are feeling, with a fast-tracked experimental vaccine made with recombinant technology and with a high rate of reactions in the original studies...just asking for trouble.

Are there really people who buy the mass hysteria explanation? Or the sudden abandonment of science by the Japanese explanation?

Thank you for sharing Deborah! :)
 

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Was is a specific incident?

What exactly is your fear that vaccines do?

Is there a specific ingredient you are bothered by?

Do you believe there is a concerted, conscious effort to push unsafe vaccines?

What is your goal as a vaccine critic?

If you lived somewhere where vaccine preventable disease were endemic, would you vaccinate?


Thanks for helping me understand your positions :)
1. There were two formative incidents that made me question vaccines.

When my son was young, he was vaccinated more or less on schedule. Around 12-18 months, two thing happened that made me question things.

a. I learned that DaPT was safer than DPT, that the powers that be had known this for years, and that my son got DPT when DaPT was safer. To give a baby a product when a safer one exists in inexcusable to me.

b. They went from giving one MMR to two. When I asked the public health nurse (and later the doctor) why the protocal changed, they informed me it was to capture the 5% or so of people for whom the first MMR did not work. I asked how common measles mumps or rubella were and they could not answer. I certainly was not going to give my child a drug which he did not need (as 95% of children don't) for a disease they could not even give me numbers on.

This was a bit of a lightbulb for me - I went from vaccine being the default, to vaccines being something that I would use if I felt the case for vaccinating was strong.

2. Physically - thimerosal and aluminum. Ethically - diploid cells.

3. Absolutely not.

4. Promote informed choice and preserve the role of parents as medical decision makers in the vast majority of circumstances.

5. That depends on the disease, and on how prevalent a disease is

I would be unlikely to vaccinate a baby under 3 for anything but diphtheria or Polio in an epidemic. Really, they need to have non combined shots

I would consider vaccinating a child for measles. I would consider suggesting mumps(males) rubella and chicken pox (females) to older teens who have not had the disease.

Everything else is pretty much a no.

My youngest had one shot, Prevnar, because I thought she in particular was a candidate for it.

I will also add that I am not going to defend my choices - clarify, perhaps, but defend? Nope. Parental rights and all that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
1. There were two formative incidents that made me question vaccines.

When my son was young, he was vaccinated more or less on schedule. Around 12-18 months, two thing happened that made me question things.

a. I learned that DaPT was safer than DPT, that the powers that be had known this for years, and that my son got DPT when DaPT was safer. To give a baby a product when a safer one exists in inexcusable to me.

b. They went from giving one MMR to two. When I asked the public health nurse (and later the doctor) why the protocal changed, they informed me it was to capture the 5% or so of people for whom the first MMR did not work. I asked how common measles mumps or rubella were and they could not answer. I certainly was not going to give my child a drug which he did not need (as 95% of children don't) for a disease they could not even give me numbers on.

This was a bit of a lightbulb for me - I went from vaccine being the default, to vaccines being something that I would use if I felt they were a good idea.

2. Physically - thimerosal and aluminum. Ethically - diploid cels.

3. Absolutely not.

4. Promote informed choice and preserve the role of parents as medical decision makers in the vast majority of circumstances.

5. That depends on the disease, and on how prevalent a disease is

I would be unlikely to vaccinate a baby under 3 for anything but diphtheria or Polio in an epidemic. Really, they need to have non combined shots

I would consider vaccinating a child for measles. I would consider suggesting mumps(males) rubella and chicken pox (females) to older teens who have not had the disease.

Everything else is pretty much a no.

My youngest had one shot, Prevnar, because I thought she in particular was a candidate for it.

I will also add that I am not going to defend my choices - clarify, perhaps, but defend? Nope. Parental rights and all that.

Thank you very much!
 

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You're welcome :smile:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I guess it's only fair for me to say why I vaccinate!

I actually belonged to a parenting board for a few years before getting pregnant, so I had heard a lot of moms talking about not vaccinating or delay/selectively vaccinating. When I became pregnant I delved into the vaccine issue, read all the studies I could get my hands on, bought Dr. Sears The Vaccine Book and read that, lurked around here etc. Ultimately I found no arguments that ever made me question the safety of vaccines on a macro level. I definitely believe some people can have reactions to vaccines that can range from mild to extremely severe or even fatal, but I believe they happen very, very rarely.

BUT I guess I do sorta kinda maybe of fit into the "delayed" vaccine camp as I didn't give any of my kids Hep until their 2 month appointments ;) :lol: My reasoning was that while I agree with it being public policy to vaccinate at birth so as many kids as possible are vaccinated against it, I know that's largely done because it's the one time they know they will definitely be able to do it. I knew for sure I was obviously going to bring them to follow up pediatrician appointments, so the 0.0000001% chance of them having a reaction was greater than the chance they would get Hep which was, of course, as close to zero as possible. Other than that though, we have vaccinated 100% on schedule with no ill effects other than my oldest getting a rash after his MMR.

I believe vaccines are a crucial component to public health and I want vaccine rates to go up, but I do not support legislation to take away the choice, at least not at this point.

Oh and full disclosure I am going into the medical field myself, so the more I learn about the immune system, vaccines, viruses etc the more convinced I am of their safety and efficacy. However, I think it's important that especially if I am seeing patients who choose not to vaccinate, that I understand where they are coming from so I can relate compassionately and not just sterilely.

So that's me :grin:
 

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Was is a specific incident?
Yes, but nothing dramatic or monumental.

I brought my newborn, born out of hospital, in for a first pediatric exam. The pediatrician learned that I used a midwife, looked at me quizzically, and asked, "So what do you think of vaccines?" I was offended by the question. How dare she think that just because I used a midwife, I'd be one of those nutjobs?

So I was a little taken aback when she offered a Hep B vaccine. DH and I stared at each other awkwardly and then said, "Sure. Go ahead." I had always figured that vaccines were for serious diseases that children had a high risk of catching. I couldn't remember which of the "Heps" Hep B was, but our baby must have needed it if it was being offered right?

Suffice to say, I read the VIS on the car ride home and was pissed. :irked

Then I learned about how the vaccine schedule mushroomed since drug companies were granted indemnification in 1986, and I had a hard time believing that was a coincidence.

I stopped vaccinating my baby entirely. I needed to know what the hell was going on. I read The Vaccine Book, carefully went over each vaccine and vaccine-targeted illness with DH, and formulated a schedule that seemed reasonable to us.

We vaccinate our children and to this day get called "anti-vax."

What exactly is your fear that vaccines do?
Fear is a loaded word. I haven't identified one specific "fearful" thing that a particular vaccine could do to my children. I know of potential risks and that my children are as vulnerable to them as other healthy children, but I'm mostly apprehensive because of the gaps in scientific research.

Is there a specific ingredient you are bothered by?
Human diploid cells. We use vaccines containing them, despite being pro-life, but I go back and forth ethically.

I'm also waiting for more solid research on aluminum, although we vaccinate with it conservatively.

Do you believe there is a concerted, conscious effort to push unsafe vaccines?
It's certainly concerted, as that just means that people and organizations are working together to encourage, (or force), vaccine compliance.

For the most part, I don't think it's conscious. I believe that most doctors genuinely believe they are doing the best they can for their patients. (ETA: Although I don't appreciate those who get too weird and dickish on this issue with their patients. Honestly, they're just turning people away from vaccinating).

I say "for the most part" because I do know that pushing unsafe pharmaceutical products is something that drug companies do. That's not a conspiracy theory, it's a simple fact. We've seen this with SSRIs in juveniles, Vioxx, and suspicious moves like the refusal to release Tamiflu data or, for that matter, any studies with negative results.

More damning still is the "public-private" partnership between the CDC and drug companies vis-a-vis the CDC Foundation. BMJ just published a scathing op-ed about that. Also, when doctors attend pharma-sponsored CME workshops, they shouldn't pretend like we don't notice.

What is your goal as a vaccine critic?
To challenge my thinking continually, to make the best decisions for my family, and to protect my right to do both freely.

If you lived somewhere where vaccine preventable disease were endemic, would you vaccinate?
Yes. There may be some odd exceptions or wiggle-room for this, (e.g. an egregiously risky vaccine, a really mild illness), but for the most part, yes.
 

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I heard there was only about 500,000, or was it 50,000 or so flu vaccines and then there was this supposed vaccine drought but they were still administering them to millions for a long time. But it wasn't the flu vaccine it was some sugar water placebo. And either the real flu vaccines or the placebos have microscopic chips so the government can track people.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I heard there was only about 500,000, or was it 50,000 or so flu vaccines and then there was this supposed vaccine drought but they were still administering them to millions for a long time. But it wasn't the flu vaccine it was some sugar water placebo. And either the real flu vaccines or the placebos have microscopic chips so the government can track people.
Microchips? Wow, that's definitely a new one to me.
 

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Microchips? Wow, that's definitely a new one to me.
It's a conspiracy theory, for sure. But nothing I want to mess around with. Theory goes that the H1N1 flu was released by the governments to irradicate the population eventually down to a specific number. The people that they wanted to save were the ones who were given the real vaccine and the rest of the population are being tricked into thinking they are protected. It makes sense if you think how long flues have been around and that there was this big deal over this one strain of flu. But at the same time, not everyone got the flu nor the vaccine. I hear that it was about to be made mandatory by the Canadian government and that they were going to start charging people for the vaccine. Well, it's not ordered but I think you do have to pay for it now.
 

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Was is a specific incident?

My son has a terrible reaction to his 4 month shots. Screaming for hours, writhing and arching his back and then an extremely long (9-ish hours) period of sleep from which I couldn't wake him. He slept like that again the second day. Within a few weeks his demeanor changed. He stopped laughing, cooing, making eye contact, smiling. He screamed when he went to his Father or anyone else. At his 6 month appointment I told the nurses what had happened and they told me that was normal, it was his body making antibodies. How hours of screaming and flinging himself around the cot was his body "making antibodies" is anyone's guess. What they should have done, was look at the vaccine insert (I had no idea they existed) and read up on the contraindications, which would have advised them not to administer his 6 month shots. They didn't, and proceeded to inject my son again. He suffered the same reaction. He received 1 vaccine at his 12 month appointment (not the Dtap which he had reacted to) and then I started researching. I never allowed him to be vaccinated again.

What exactly is your fear that vaccines do?

I don't know what they did to my son. I have read the theories and the studies and listened to the Doctors who believe vaccines have harmed people. All I know is my son had a reaction that changed him. It wasn't a coincidence, it wasn't some random excruciating pain that just happened to hit 15 minutes after both vaccine visits. They caused it.

Is there a specific ingredient you are bothered by?

There are many, but the most concerning for me is the aluminum and the human DNA.

Do you believe there is a concerted, conscious effort to push unsafe vaccines?

By whom? The drug companies that make them? I wouldn't be surprised. By medical personnel? I don't think so. I honestly think they believe they are as safe as they think they are.

What is your goal as a vaccine critic?

Nothing. I'm not here to write letters or contact my local member of parliament. I'm just here to listen and read and be aware as a parent. If someone asks me about my experiences then I will share, but I'm not a crusader. I'm not strong enough nor knowledgeable enough for that. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm cowardly. Maybe I have a duty to fight and make others aware of the dangers. I'm not really sure.

If you lived somewhere where vaccine preventable disease were endemic, would you vaccinate?

I think I would depend on the disease. Measles, no, but Polio, probably.



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I'm not in the US, but here's my 2 cents...

Was is a specific incident?
No. Just cautious from the beginning.

What exactly is your fear that vaccines do?
I don't believe that vaccines should be a one-size fits all proposition.

Is there a specific ingredient you are bothered by?
Aluminum. Adventitious agents. I remember reading ages ago FDA folks meeting and talking about the animal viruses that they had identified in the past in certain vaccines. They also didn't seem to think this was a concern (well, I guess the porcine virus issue a couple of years back got their attention again).

Do you believe there is a concerted, conscious effort to push unsafe vaccines?
Read my threads in S&D. In this country I do, yes.

What is your goal as a vaccine critic?
To make the best choices for my family and our particular situation and circumstances and to refuse practices (again, see s&D thread) that I consider less safe.

If you lived somewhere where vaccine preventable disease were endemic, would you vaccinate?
Depends on the disease. Pertussis in basically endemic here now that the emergent strains being identified have strayed so far from the vaccine that the effectiveness is reduced even further and public health officials over here talk about every year being "the worst year yet" for pertussis. Because of the situation here (with the circulating pertussis not covered by the strains in the vaccine), I would be unlikely to vaccinate for pertussis.
 

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I heard there was only about 500,000, or was it 50,000 or so flu vaccines and then there was this supposed vaccine drought but they were still administering them to millions for a long time. But it wasn't the flu vaccine it was some sugar water placebo. And either the real flu vaccines or the placebos have microscopic chips so the government can track people.
If the government wants to track us they will just use our phones.
 
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I used to be anti/non vax so I'll answer for how I used to feel. :)

It was not a specific incident because my kids had zero vaccines until this year (at 2, 4 and 6).

I was apprehensive because of claims of autism-like reactions, encephalitis, etc. It was easier to keep the status quo by doing nothing.

Not really a specific ingredient.

I never believed in the theory that "big pharma" was purposely and knowingly pushing vaccines they knew were unsafe.

I didn't have a goal beyond my own family.

Yes, depending on the disease I was ready to change my mind if my circumstances changed.
 
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Was is a specific incident?

What exactly is your fear that vaccines do?

Is there a specific ingredient you are bothered by?

Do you believe there is a concerted, conscious effort to push unsafe vaccines?

What is your goal as a vaccine critic?

If you lived somewhere where vaccine preventable disease were endemic, would you vaccinate?


Thanks for helping me understand your positions :)
I work as Project manager for electronic medical records, traveled to many states and some countries doing this, I found that many physicians( besides Peds/FP/UC) are not 100% sold in the vaccine science, after many conversations (outside workplace) with some physicians I decided to read more about it and changed my point of view on vaccines.

We did some shots on our first child,(after we questioned the need for Hep B) and we can clearly tell some differences in their health.
Vaccines also killed my Siberian Husky.
 
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