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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Cause:

"There is only one traffic law in Ramadi these days: when Americans approach, Iraqis scatter. Horns blaring, brakes screaming, the midday traffic skids to the side of the road as a line of Humvee jeeps ferrying American marines rolls the wrong way up the main street. Every vehicle, that is, except one beat-up old taxi. Its elderly driver, flapping his outstretched hand, seems, amazingly, to be trying to turn the convoy back. Gun turrets swivel and lock on to him, as a hefty marine sergeant leaps into the road, levels an assault rifle at his turbanned head, and screams: "Back this bitch up, motherfucker!"

"The old man should have read the bilingual notices that American soldiers tack to their rear bumpers in Iraq: "Keep 50m or deadly force will be applied". In Ramadi, the capital of central Anbar province, where 17 suicide-bombs struck American forces during the month-long Muslim fast of Ramadan in the autumn, the marines are jumpy. Sometimes, they say, they fire on vehicles encroaching within 30 metres, sometimes they fire at 20 metres: "If anyone gets too close to us we fucking waste them," says a bullish lieutenant. "It's kind of a shame, because it means we've killed a lot of innocent people."

"And not all of them were in cars. Since discovering that roadside bombs, known as Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs), can be triggered by mobile telephones, marines say they shoot at any Iraqi they see handling a phone near a bomb-blast. Bystanders to an insurgent ambush are also liable to be killed. Sometimes, the marines say they hide near the body of a dead insurgent and kill whoever comes to collect it. According to the marine lieutenant: "It gets to a point where you can't wait to see guys with guns, so you start shooting everybody...It gets to a point where you don't mind the bad stuff you do."

From:
http://fairuse.1accesshost.com/news3/economist.html

Effect:

"There are more rebels and sympathisers in Iraq than US forces to fight them, Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi's intelligence chief said yesterday.

It is the bleakest assessment to date of the armed revolt waged by some sections of the Sunni population.
"I think the resistance is bigger than the US military in Iraq. I think the resistance is more than 200,000 people," General Mohamed Abdullah Shahwani said."

From:
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/com...55E663,00.html

"There are some who feel like that conditions are such that they can attack us there. My answer is: Bring 'em on. We have the force necessary to deal with the situation."

--- George W. Bush, July 2003
 

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What do you want the servicemen to do? They have been put in a situation where the enemy dresses in civilian clothes. How exactly are the servicemen supposed to tell the difference between a peaceful person and a civilian. The insurrgents aren't exaclty following any rules of combat. Is it any wonder why this is happening.

Elphaba
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba
Our soldiers are not meant to be a police force. They are not trained to be a police force. We have put them in a shit situation and they're doing whatever they can to survive.
This is what a military occupation does to the occupiers. This is why a lot of people thought this war was a very bad idea. Should we be asking our decent young men and women (and also our decent middle-aged and even late middle-aged men and women) to die in order to impose this occupation on a foreign country with which we have almost no connection?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Quote:

Originally Posted by captain optimism
This is what a military occupation does to the occupiers. This is why a lot of people thought this war was a very bad idea.
Bingo.

I remember reading dispatches in the press several months after the toppling of Hussein's regime in which junior officers were talking about the small window of opportunity they had as an occuping force to win Iraqi hearts and minds, knowing that if they didn't get the country up and running there would be trouble ahead.

I can certainly understand the military partners' agreeing on the "tried by 12 than carried by 6" belief. I just would hope that they would also understand why the son of a Iraqi taxi driver who got ventilated by a MK19 because he strayed too close to a Humvee in Ramadi may be eager to later plant an IED on the same road Humvees et al. travel on.

And I guarantee that husbands/wives/sons/daughters etc. who kill innocent people in Iraq will not be the same people when (and if) they come back.
 

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RowansDad, I don't often post here but I do read -- and I wanted to thank you for your posts. It's too easy for us to forget the horrible things that are being done in our name, and too important that we remember.

Namaste,

Pallas
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Irishmommy
So who are they "insurging" against? It's not fellow Iraqis, right? So if the US doesn't want it's troops killed, then get them the hell out of there.

I know, I'm preaching to the choir.

Iraq police targeted

Quote:
Insurgents lured Iraqi policemen to a house in west Baghdad and set off a huge amount of explosives, killing at least 29 people, seven of them police.
according to this article, they aren't just going after US soldiers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The costs of being an occupier that folks don't make beer commercials out of...

Deadly cases of mistaken IDs

"Suddenly about 20 uniformed paratroopers of the 82nd Airborne Division appeared across the median. Breathless and jittery, the men were walking back to camp after a harrowing morning in which one of their soldiers was shot by a sniper. Half of the troops raised their hands and signaled the taxi to halt.

"The car slowed, but then it sped up. In line with their rules of engagement, the troops opened fire, blowing out three of the four windows, two tires, and ripping through the windshield and hood of the Volkswagen sedan. The smell of gasoline filled the air.

"Cease fire!" one of the soldiers yelled, and all was quiet.

"From inside the pockmarked car, the driver, a tall balding man with a bullet hole in his chest, unlatched his door and stumbled to the curb. The father got out, too, blood covering his face and soaking his black wool sweater. The back door opened and round-faced Hakam with an injured hand stepped from the car, looked at the troops and started to sob."

More here:
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationwo...news-headlines

Most shootings aren't publicized

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationwo...-world-big-pix
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Some may recall the pictures of the decimated Iraqi family at a checkpoint at Tal Afar (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/h...ar/html/1.stm). Following is a "where are those kids now" piece from Newsweek:

"Army investigators in Iraq have cleared Apache Company's soldiers of any wrongdoing. The men did what they were trained to do under the circumstances. Yet that's small comfort to the Hassan orphans. "If it were up to me, I'd kill the Americans and drink their blood," says Jilan, 14. Her 12-year-old brother, Rakan, was discharged from Mosul General Hospital this month. Doctors said his best hope of walking again is to seek treatment outside Iraq. At least he can move his legs. As far as he knows, his parents are in the hospital, recovering from the shooting. No one dares to tell him the truth."

More here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7245228/site/newsweek/

Blowback from what happens when this "culture of life" crowd unnecessarily released the dogs of war two years ago.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
From '****' to '*******'

"The officer's comment was a harbinger of the gratuitous violence that, according to Mr. Delgado, is routinely inflicted by American soldiers on ordinary Iraqis. He said: "Guys in my unit, particularly the younger guys, would drive by in their Humvee and shatter bottles over the heads of Iraqi civilians passing by. They'd keep a bunch of empty Coke bottles in the Humvee to break over people's heads."

"He said he had confronted guys who were his friends about this practice. "I said to them: 'What the hell are you doing? Like, what does this accomplish?' And they responded just completely openly. They said: 'Look, I hate being in Iraq. I hate being stuck here. And I hate being surrounded by hajis.' "

"Haji" is the troops' term of choice for an Iraqi. It's used the way "****" or "Charlie" was used in Vietnam."

More here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/02/op...rint&position=
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Losing hearts and minds

"NPR reporter Philip Reeves followed American soldiers around Mosul. At one point, the soldiers decided to take over a civilian house for two hours as a surveillance post. A lieutenant said to the surprised family of the house, ''Listen to me. Let me make this really clear for you. We need to be in your house for two hours. Everybody in this house will stay here."

"When the family continue to appear to be ''baffled and unhappy," another soldier stepped in and said (with obscenities bleeped out by NPR):

''Look, check this out. You tell them this. You're not [bleep] leaving. Nobody's [bleep] leaving this house. You're not using the phone. Anybody comes, they're going to [bleep] stay here. OK? You give me a [bleep] hard time, I'll turn you [bleep] guys into the commandos, and they'll [bleep] you up."

In the background, one soldier said, ''Hey don't translate that." Another soldier added, ''Yeah, don't say that." The soldier with the foul mouth said, ''That's what I tell them all the time." Again, a soldier said, ''You shouldn't say that."

More here:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/edi..._minds?mode=PF

Reeves' report on NPR can be heard here:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4647569
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba
As for me, I want my husband to come home alive, in one piece and if that means he kills innocent people, fine by me. I am selfish. I put the person I know and love ahead of everyone else.
Which is how so many Iraqis feel when they see your husband...and why support for resistance will grow. Since, Iraq is so shattered in so many ways there will be all sorts of different kinds of resistance militias from the ba'athits to the wahhabis to average joe and his gang of pissed-off-at -having- the -wahhabis -and- ba'athists -and -americans -randomly -murder- our -brothers and- babies- and -grandmas- in- the -street and so on and so forth. And the Americans won't know or give a damn about the difference and the cycle will get worse and worse. Except, they don't have the option of a trial by 12, they will die fighting in hopes, at least, that their own children don't have to deal with occupiers who think their lives are worth less than fluffy back home skittering in the yard.

Reason number 1,450,908,340 why *they* hate *us*.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by nuttinhny
Iraq police targeted

according to this article, they aren't just going after US soldiers.

This is actually a very important point. There is no one unified Iraqi resistance, there are several groups. It's messy, nasty business. Shi'a in the south are attacked regularly in their holy places, in their homes and on the streets. Those who are working for the Iraqi gov't or in any civil service position are considered by both the ba'athits and the religious extremists to be legitimate targets because they are considered to be aiding the occupiers. What we have done to Iraq from hiring Saddam as a CIA hitman in the 50's to arming he and his foes to starving Iraqis through the sanctions to this madness this very day is a crime against humanity of outrageous proportions.
 
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