When someone avoids GD because its "too much work"

I read her statement as saying two things:

1. that it was her priority for there to be order in the family.

2. that she didn't have the resources to create order without imposing authority through coercion.

You are responding to #2, but let's look at #1. Is order the most important thing to you? Or are there other things you think are good for your family that are more important than order? She is saying that without order she could not have been the mother.

I don't think order is my highest priority. I think #1 for me is my child's learning. Maybe #1 for you is your children's sense of security. Or maybe #1 is something else.

My MIL, who never spanked, sometimes says things about how she parented that make me think that she didn't have enough resources, as well. (Emotional and communal, not financial--though when her older children were young they didn't have money, either!) Her priority was a clean house with regular meals. Obviously she wanted these things for her children and husband as well as for herself.

I don't doubt that these moms loved (and still love) their children, but they thought about what they should be providing for them very differently than I think about it.

I realize as I'm writing this that my mom's #1 priority was probably also learning, but that she was a major hitter and yeller. So maybe my priority theory is wrong? I sometimes feel like my mom hit and yelled out of a desire to FORCE me to be a "normal" and happy child. (!!!) I know she also had limited emotional resources. But I don't think my idea of what learning is involves that much conforming.

Or maybe I just think hitting is very very wrong!

Anyway my baby is still just a little guy. But I don't want to be a hitter, so I am going to do everything I can to be a mom who gets lots of support.

Just an off-the-cuff response here....It sounds to me like your mom felt like she had two choices: control the children, or let the children control her. It also sounds like she was afraid of you children and afraid of her feelings in response to misbehavior. Fear doesn't give us too many options. What models, support or resources did she have to move into a different understanding of children, parenting, and herself? And to gain the skills necessary to parent effectively without coercion?

I know that I am incredibly grateful for the resources (books, friends, time, supportive dp, etc) I have for doing gentle discipline, because without them I could easily despair that gentle discipline is too idealistic, or there is something wrong with me as a mother. I don't think too many people could just do it from sheer love and strong character alone.

Also, I force myself not to dwell to much on my mother's choices, it only hurts me, yields nothing helpful, and makes it hard for me to enjoy my time with her in the present. Thankfully she makes this easy by complimenting my parenting and saying she wishes she knew then what I know now. Your mom may feel ashamed of her past mothering when she sees you doing it so much more gently, and she may worry that you won't be able to forgive her, so she is sort of agreeing with you while trying to explain her sense of her limitations? (Mother-daughter relationships are so tough. I sure as heck hope my daughter forgives me for my limitations!) Just from that example quote I don't think she's saying it wasn't worth it, but that she didn't feel she was capable. That must be painful for her to reflect on, whether she admits it or not.

I know you are hurting. I hope that you find a way to make peace with your childhood and with your mother's big mistakes. What a huge gift you are giving to your children, by learning a different way. There must be a lot of healing in that!

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Both quite accurate statements. I think. The trouble is, I feel like her priorties excluded her kids. We ourselves were not a priority.

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She may have *felt* love, but most of the time she didn't demonstrate love. I'm not sure what love is, if its not born out in action.

No, I don't think she loved us adequately. Which is a very hard thing to come to grips with. If my own mother couldn't love me, then who could?

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Mine too, hitting, yelling, slapping, punching, cursing..... etc. Somehow -- its easier for me to forgive the out-control-tired-stressed out woman who lacked resources and "lost it" sometimes. *THAT* I can relate to!

What I have trouble with is the realization that she consciously chose and lived a philosophy of childrearing that served *her* and not us. Kind of like, "Yeah, I drink too much caffeine. Life is short." But instead, "Yeah, I beat my kids, but at least they obey me!"

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None whatsoever. And I realize it.

In so many other ways my parents were "progressive" hippie types though. In so many ways they realized the problems associated with "blind obedience" in the world. But with children, it was a whole 'nother story. Their open-mindedness stopped short when it came to kids (and animals, for that matter) in a way that left us in the cold.

WHY? How can a mother and father look at a precious child, and not want to strive for the *best* possible scenerio for that child??

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Your probably right. My mom goes through phases of being wonderful, supportive, and amazing. I become dependent on her support. Then she goes through phases of being narcissistic, mean, undependable, horrid..... We are in the latter phase lately, and its triggering a lot in me. I'm having a particularly hard time with this lately.

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Perhaps. But to be clear -- I have not initiated these conversations, and I *never* steer them towards reflections on my childhood. Its very painful for me to go there. These conversations arise when *she* challenges my ways with my children. She hasn't said it, but I think she believes I'm off my rocker. She will oftens suggest that I need to "wise up" about my kids supposedly manipulating me. That sort of thing.

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My parents have both said this too. It *does* mean a lot! Though, it confuses me at the same time because I *know* their views on discipline. Mixed messages.

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I know. I know. And like I said in response to Captain Optimism, the outbursts and the "loosing it" is easier for me to forgive. Its the utter refusal to even think about getting well, or even attempting to strive for better things that *kills* me. The deliberate planning toward having "easy and compliant" children at whatever cost, without any forsight into what that would mean for these children later.

I'm not at all good at feeling "angry." But I do these days. For so long I defended them, explained everything away, tried to make it seem like they loved me completely. But now I just feel ANGRY. And I don't know what to do with it.

mamaduck, your mother sounds sad and frightened to me. it sounds like she has been for quite some time. it seems to me that she knows whats right, knows you are doing a beautiful job of momming, but critisizes you to keep from all the hurt she would feel if she really really looked at how she hurt her own kids. and her crummy parenting excuses just make it clear that she felt helpless for whatever reason. probably her own childhood wounds were just too scary for her to look at closely enought to be able to change, becuase you know, when you look at that stuff, you feel it all over again, sometimes more intensely than when it originally happened, and lots (most?) poeple just dont have the courage to go throught that, and they end up trapped by themselves, paralyzed because they are afraid to do what they have to do to move on, hence the immmaturity your mother displays- its liks shes stuck in a younger age because she has been unable to learn the lessons she needed to extrapolate from experiences at certain ages, because she is afraid to really look at those lessons that were being offered. and her kids suffered for it. maybe some of that sounds right?

how crappy for you. congradulations on getting angry about it. you need to. you are justified. what to do about it is trickier. my mom has similar stuff, or, uh, um, I have similar stuff about my mom. man it is crazy to deal with parents who cant or wont learn the stuff WE have worked so hard to figure out for the sake of our kids.

and yeah, i can stand to work on the letting it go, because why should the past effect my now? but i think there is a balance, because really, no matter how i try to leave it behind, the past DOES affect my behavior now. and it is either gonna be in the form of thinking/analyzing/feeling, or if i try to ignore it, it manifests in less controllable, unpredictable ways that tend to hurt me, dd, dh. the trick is figuring out just how much dwelling is constructive, and when i have crossed over that limit. if mamaduck is only just now allowing herself anger about it, i am guessing it still bears looking at.

wow. just wanted to say thanks for this thread.. i too have similar stuff re: my mom, and i've been thinking about it a lot lately. it is very very hard for me, also, to comprehend how i didn't seem to be worth sh*t to her.. in fact, quite the contrary.. i felt like her burden, her constant annoyance. still to this day she denies me my feelings on the most trivial matter even. i'll be watching this thread and maybe i'll have more to say later..

s to us all

Parents often see themselves in their children, and one of (many) difficulties often between parents & their adult children is the parent sees the adult child's life as a reflection of their own worth. So when they don't agree with each other, its taken as a personal insult to the parent, i'd think that could be even more about how one parent's (parenting differently than your parents did is an indirect criticism of how they parented)

Part of why I have such a good relationship with my mother is that she has done so much personal growth and long ago let go of needing to control my life, or seeing my life as a reflection of her, or thinking that if I'm not leading a "successful" life that means she was a bad parent (she also owns up to things she did wrong, and we've had great conversations about what she wished she had the knowledge/resources to have done differently.

I don't think strict, punishing kinds of parents is necessarily easier or less work than more a more gentle discipline approach - it takes a lot of energy to yell and scream & hit, and behaving like that has an emotional toll, especiacially ifs a regular thing. Not to mention it can set the stage for violence from children as they get bigger.

I've used a lot of strategies from abuse survivor self-help books for dealing with family members - and I think the non-violent communication book has a chapter on life affirming ways to express anger, for trying to figure what to do with feeling angry.

Christina Cat

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In my opinion, these are prerequisites for having children. Not saying your mom shouldn't have had kids, because then you wouldn't be here and I wouldn't want that...

It's a big job and I think all of what it entails isn't considered often enough, or taken seriously.

I also agree that our parents take it personally when there are differences in decision making; particularly parenting...you know what though? Get over it. I don't have time for that crap. Maintaining a relationship with my parents isn't worth it if it causes me to doubt my own worth and my parenting decisions.

Jen

I have to agree with sunbaby. Upon reading your mother's "excuses", I immediately felt them to be a coverup for what she is really feeling inside. I would not take what she said literally. Frankly, I think it's a load of crap she's believing in her own head to keep her from facing the truth.

I try SO hard not to make my mother feel like I think she was a bad or abusive parent because she did CIO with us at 6 weeks of age. And yet I myself could never ever do that to a baby because I think it's cruel and heartless. So how do I convey my passionate belief that it's wrong, which is why I am not doing it, but at the same time not be sending the message "you were cruel and a bad parent and I hate you for that"? The thing is, I love my mother and I do think she was a very good parent, especially when I see what HER childhood was like and how hard she strived to be different from that. Her style of parenting was leaps and bounds ahead of my grandparents. And mine is leaps and bounds ahead of hers. I don't want to hurt her, but it really is tough to portray how we feel about something as serious as spanking, without asking them to accept that they were really wrong in their choices.

You are holding a huge mirror of Truth in front of her eyes and asking her to look at it and just accept it. That's a really tough act to play. I see the defensiveness in my mother all the time when I agree to do something differently than she did, and I bet each one of us here feels that defensiveness when faced with criticisms about our parenting decisions. I think the difference is that, when you've really done your research, thought it all out, and made your decision with confidence, then you are able to face up to the criticism with strenght and dignity.

Your mother, OTOH, likely did not do any real research. She just acted the way that felt "natural" to her. And sadly, she probably didn't have any proper role models or examples in her life of good parenting. She just did what felt "normal" to her, because she was also damaged as a child. Now, she's making excuses for herself because it's way too hard to have to look at the Truth and accept how wrong she was.

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Yes, this is also an important piece to me. I feel like my mom did a lot of rotten things but even when I was a child I was aware that she was trying not to do some things her parents did.

Still I think it won't be that difficult for me to parent more consciously than she did!

Mamaduck, you said:

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It seems to me that a desire for order and control is inherently at odds with having children! Any discipline that prioritizes order must necessarily be coercive. Does that sort of contradict my point above? Okay, maybe. I just can't think of a way to make children be orderly without imposing it on them.

This is a helpful insight. It will enable me to deal with criticism in a way that I couldn't before, as in "I can tolerate our household being a little disorderly so that little Schmeedle feels like he can ask questions."

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At the same time, I wonder how much reality and truth there is in her excuse. In a hard life, with little resources, is harsh and strict parenting really the best that some parents can do? If they had tried to adjust their mindset and to change their priorities, would they have lost their minds from the stress of being more attached emotionally to us?

me:

One way of thinking about that could be discovering/imagining what she thought her options were. If someone thinks their only parenting options (becauses its the ones they have ever heard of/seen) is harsh & strict, or very self-sacrificial, living entirely through one's children with nothing of your own (being a common conception of motherhood) I could see choosing harsh to preserve something of self-hood.

For people who want to try to connecting to their parents, when its worthwhile & possible to build a positive relationship & have understand of parenting issues as adults, it could be an useful or interesting excerise to imagine your own reactions to your children parenting very differently than you when they grow up - role play both sides of the issue to try and find common ground, positive ways to communicate.

Take some parenting ideas that are somewhat intruiging, but way too far fetched for you to ever consider doing them yourself, and pretend that is what your child believes an adult & is unhappy you didn't follow, or something that you find good, but too much work, or too againt your prefered lifestyle to do. (For me I could do something like living off the grid, totally organic food, very toxin-free household. I think its kind of cool, but I simply don't think I coudl live that way, and I could imagine someone being unhappy about the amount of toxins they were exposed to as a child in a possible future where much more attention is paid to it)

Not designed to produce guilt, just to touch on different sides & see if you can find a way to relate. Is often up to the adult child to find ways they can be happy with relating to their parents, to break out of the roles they were pushed into as children & live more the way they want to live today.

I often think about how becoming a mother is one of those things every woman is supposed to do - lots of messages, especially in the past, that if you don't have children, you aren't a real woman. Lots of babies had less from desire to be involved in the everyday life of a babies & children, than because it is what is expected (or was rather unavoidable, was just with my mother, about how my grandmother first found out about birth control pills - after 8 children, and the amazement & wonder that it was possible to prevent that). Very very different ideas, and lots of ones I really disagree with, recognizing that might help. To realize that talking about your parenting & your parents parenting, you are talking about apples & oranges, unrelated fruits that grow in different climates.

Christina Cat

Ive done some therapy work around this very topic, mostly regarding issues with my fathers parenting, but neither of them were very good.

You have to look at how THEY were parented. Who else are they going to model from? Its painful to look at our shit and deal and make changes, the way it sounds most of us are doing in choosing a different way to parent. Its hard and even impossible for some people to do. And our parents, their generation did not support doing that at all.

I feel a litte fortunate in this as I had my first ds when I was 19 and my second dd at 42. My parenting styles are dramatically different. Not just bc I was a single parent the first time around, and so much younger......but bc I know better. I love that quote by Maya Angelou "when you know better, you DO better".

Also, thinking back to the time when I was a single parent, I wish I had asked for help from my neighbors. Looking back, that is my single greatest regret and I now see how I could have made things better for my ds and I, just asking for help. Its brilliant that you see that, bestjob.

Letting go has been a huge lesson for me. My dad passed away before we could mend our relationship. Im still full of anger and will now have to do the work myself.......releasing myself from that. It definetly affects every relationship I have today.

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This is my mom. She was a very reactive parent (lots of screaming, some slapping). When I speak out against yelling at/hitting children, she gets VERY defensive--and says a lot of things that I know she doesn't believe anymore (that spanking/yelling is sometimes necessary, that it is harmless....). *I think that she says these things because, when she thinks back to how she treated us, it is horrifying to realize and admit that hitting and yelling is NOT necessary and IS harmful. That she did these frightening things to the 3 little children that she loved most in the world, and it was not necessary. Because I truly believe that *at the time* she thought it WAS necessary--that if she had not imposed order through force, we would have grown up to be undisciplined, uncaring, unhappy criminals.

Mamaduck, you said "She may have *felt* love, but most of the time she didn't demonstrate love. I'm not sure what love is, if its not born out in action." As an enlightened (I hope) parent, I completely agree. As a grown child, I know that my parents loved me and my sisters more than anything on Earth, and they still terrorized us at times. They believed that was necessary to keep us from becoming criminals. My mother and father disciplined out of fear for our future. I discipline out of hope for my daughter's future.

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That sums up my childhood. My mom constantly asks if I felt loved as a child, and I know I've hurt her feeling when I've answered honestly. I "know" she loved me, but much of the time I didn't *feel* it - I felt mostly scared and trying to be perfect. She was not really a yeller or hitter, but she was icy when she was mad and I tried to be perfect so she would act loving to me.

But still, I struggle to *show* love to my child instead of basing it off their actions, even though I know how it feels on the receiving end. It is difficult for me to show love when I'm not *feeling* loving, KWIM? I hate that.

Also, I know what she did was WAY ahead of how she was parented as a child. And I very much appreciate the struggle. I just have to remember how I felt and try not to create that.

This is why I was so scared to have a daughter...