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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Remi and I were in the shopping today and were taking a break. I was feeding the Tonka truck ride on quarters and talking to him about how "cool" the "big tuck" was when the electricity went out. We were right by the window so I let him keep turning the steering wheel thinking that they would be back on momentarily. After about 5 min they weren't on and the employees were asking everyone to leave (since the antitheft devices by the door weren't working either). I tried for a few mintues to get Remi to come off the truck (I explained and asked nicely and everything else GD I could think of) but when we were the last one's left I had no option but to pick him up (which elicited screaming) and go. I felt awful and I kept thinking that I just KNEW I'd missed some glaringly obvious option (that didn't involve bribery). So here I am asking if I really did miss something or if sometimes you just HAVE to go (whether your truck obsessed 18 month old likes it or not.)
 

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What I have done in a similar situation was to solicit an employee to explain to ds/us that we need to leave. Perhaps asking the employee to escort us out the door. This seems to have more "authority" to it than if I were telling ds something that seemed out of the ordinary for our interactions without apparent cause. IMO, he wants to make sense of the situation. Another technique is to involve the child's sensory experiences during the transition toward some other place OUT the door: 'oh, did you see that red car? Let's go see where it went. Do you want me to give you a fast ride in the cart?'

I see that your son is quite young. Personally, I don't believe that moving *toward* something more appealing is bribing if it isn't held as a "you have to do this in order to get that" condition. If the item that one is moving toward involves leaving the store (ie. going to the ice cream store), that sounds like a win/win to me.

Pat
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by scubamama
What I have done in a similar situation was to solicit an employee to explain to ds/us that we need to leave. Perhaps asking the employee to escort us out the door. This seems to have more "authority" to it than if I were telling ds something that seemed out of the ordinary for our interactions without apparent cause.
Pat
I'm not sure I would agree with this approach, simply because I think it undermines your position as the parent and sets you up for power-struggles if there is no one 'in authority' to help you out next time.

Personally, I feel that in your scenario I would simply pick DS up saying, "Yes, Matthew is MAD! Matthew does not want to leave! But..the store is broken and we must go bye bye. Bye bye store!"

And then chatter at him while carrying calmly to the parking lot.
 

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At 18 months I would try my best to distract him - look mommy's phone, want to hold my wallet, ooh, here's a cracker? Whatever. If all else fails I would have picked him up, saying "I know it's hard to leave when you're not ready" and then started babbling about something fun/distracting, hanging him upside down (he loves this), bounce and spin as we walked, whatever. You get the picture. But yes, even if he's crying, I will pick the child up and carry him out.

With all due respect to the pp, I would not have gotten an employee. I expect to have more authority with my kids than anyone else, especially someone like mall security. If I were to tell them one thing and another adult were to tell them another, I'd expect them to listen to me.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Joannarachel
I'm not sure I would agree with this approach, simply because I think it undermines your position as the parent and sets you up for power-struggles if there is no one 'in authority' to help you out next time.

Personally, I feel that in your scenario I would simply pick DS up saying, "Yes, Matthew is MAD! Matthew does not want to leave! But..the store is broken and we must go bye bye. Bye bye store!"

I agree with the approach to just set the limit and follow through. Do you say "Matthew is MAD!" to your son? I'd feel highly irritated if someone referred to me like that instead of just saying "you are mad". I know a lot of people do that with kids but I've never understood why and it sometimes leads to speech problems where kids don't use pronouns properly - just a thought there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
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Originally Posted by oceanbaby
At 18 months I would try my best to distract him - look mommy's phone, want to hold my wallet, ooh, here's a cracker?
You just helped me pinpoint an issue I've been having. I've been using the worrd "bribing" instead of "distracting." What I do to make the transition easier really isn't bribing (since I don't require that he do X to get Y like a pp stated). I swear I read/heard somewhere that at 18 months you should stop distracting and start disciplining and for some odd reason it's stuck with me. I'm slowly starting to see that 18 months isn't some magic age in which I should abandon distration as a useful tool. Ugh. Luckily I bought Unconditional Parenting yesterday (on page 80 baby!) and it makes WAY more sense to me than all this other stuff people have been feeding me. It just feels *right to me. And I suppose as long as distraction works I should use it huh?
 

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I think redirection if possible? Was there a ride on outside or a favorite toy truck at home he might have wanted to play with? Agreeing with pps about something to move towards.
I see nothing wrong with Pat's suggestion to ask an employee to escort them. It is logical for a child to question an experience that differs from the ordinary, even if it is questioning mom. If a child goes to a store aften and has never before had the experience of HAVING to leave, it would not fit in with their previous experience of being at the store. Recently when on a nature hike we showed my ds, 4, posion ivy and explained what could happen if he touched it. As we moved along the trail he touched just about every plant along the way, asking is this it? Yes he was questioning me, yes it was mildly frustrating, yet it was understandable. He has touched alot of leaves in his life and now I tell him a leaf can cause itchy bumps? How illogical must that have seemed. And if Jeff Corwin had been along on our hike I may have asked him to chime in.
Because leaving the store was out of the ordinary I might have pointed out other things that were out of the ordinary about the experience as well, to cement that. See how the lights, cash registers, ride on truck, etc won't work, see how the other customers are all leaving, see how the employees are asking everyone to leave, hear how they are asking over the loud speaker for us to leave, etc.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Roar
I agree with the approach to just set the limit and follow through. Do you say "Matthew is MAD!" to your son? I'd feel highly irritated if someone referred to me like that instead of just saying "you are mad". I know a lot of people do that with kids but I've never understood why and it sometimes leads to speech problems where kids don't use pronouns properly - just a thought there.
My son has significant speech delays. The therapist recommended we use proper names instead of pronouns with him.
 

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Originally Posted by MissRubyandKen
It is logical for a child to question an experience that differs from the ordinary, even if it is questioning mom.
These are the critical thinking skills that we observe our son utilizing to practice using his own judgement. I believe that questioning is critical to learning. My judgement is not the authority for another person's own actions. Nor anyone else's judgement the authority for controlling mine. Of course, our son questions me, I would be quite concerned if he didn't. One's own judgement is always available and to be utilized. Whose judgement would one defer to without questioning? Certainly, I am fallible and have learned from others. That is the whole reason I don't hold myself as the authority over our son's judgement. And thus he sees that I can rely on other's information to make my own decisions, just as I see him rely on my information. But, blind obedience is acting 'because I said so'. No thanks, I'll take questioning and using my own mind any day, even though it is not perfect. Our son chooses to do so also. For what reason would it serve him, or me, to prevent him from using his judgement?

Pat
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Roar
I agree with the approach to just set the limit and follow through. Do you say "Matthew is MAD!" to your son? I'd feel highly irritated if someone referred to me like that instead of just saying "you are mad". I know a lot of people do that with kids but I've never understood why and it sometimes leads to speech problems where kids don't use pronouns properly - just a thought there.
I agree. Psychologically, using third person (when normally the situation would call for first or second person) creates an emotional distance. Kids are smart. They quickly pick up how pronouns work. I'd say, "You are mad," as well, instead of saying it in third person.

Oh, but now I see that your son has speech delays (with receptive speech?) That may be different.
 

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And I suppose as long as distraction works I should use it huh?
I don't have the cut off age,
I use it with dh and myself sometimes. When I really want to go back to sleep, I try to distract myself with meditative recitations and focused breathing. Or, if dh is amping up about being hungry, I'll offer some food before dinner is ready. Redirection and distraction by someone else are simplistic means of meeting an underlying need without (the child's or dh's) self-awareness being utilized. Personally, I believe that avoiding obstructing self-awareness and self-control is a more portable skill to develop.

So, I have tried to describe what is happening, my observations about the apparent underlying needs, inquiring from our son about his perspective of the situation and his ideas about what he needs. His statements help me to understand his view of the world such that I can facilitate him getting his needs met. For instance, validation is restating my observations without judging them for ds: "You really want to stay and do the truck ride. You want to drive and move the steering wheel. You want the ride to go. You want mama to put quarters in the truck so it will go. Do you see the lights have all gone out? Do you see all the people leaving the store? The electricity is broken. The truck is broken because it needs electricity. The quarters won't make it go. You are sad? You really want the truck to go? I do too, etc.' I am not telling him 'you can't', he is cognitively deducing it with his own mind! My running commentary is seeking 'nods or nos' from ds to clarify my understanding of *his* needs. In the truck situation, I am probably guessing accurately. But, ds may have had his fill of the truck without the quarters and be ready to move on, just while we are discerning his needs. They may already be filled. Often our son's need is for directing some of the transitions to a slower pace so that he can absorb and process the environment and stimuli to some logical pattern for his understanding. He is learning all the time. Sometimes the transitions are too fast for him to understand it and he will try to slow us down so that he can try to understand. That seems logical and beneficial too, imo.

So, distraction is a tool for being in the moment. But, as we are more able to process cause and effect, we can *choose* our own actions instead. This leads to autonomy, accountability, responsibility, self-awareness and self-control from my observations. I believe the earlier a child is allowed to honor his own self-awareness, the earlier that they can develop self-control. I am still learning self-awareness at 43, it was taught out of me as a child toward parental compliance instead. Granted, I have had quite a few years to learn it without support as an adult; but our son has had self-awareness and self-control (with information provided and opportunity to utilize his own judgement) since birth.

Autonomy isn't given, but it can be taken away.

Pat
 

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Quote:
I agree with the approach to just set the limit and follow through. Do you say "Matthew is MAD!" to your son? I'd feel highly irritated if someone referred to me like that instead of just saying "you are mad". I know a lot of people do that with kids but I've never understood why and it sometimes leads to speech problems where kids don't use pronouns properly - just a thought there.
This is a prime example of online misunderstanding. There was a lot more to her statement but yet the fact she used third person got picked apart. And she has valid reasons for doing it. typical
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by edswife
You just helped me pinpoint an issue I've been having. I've been using the worrd "bribing" instead of "distracting." What I do to make the transition easier really isn't bribing (since I don't require that he do X to get Y like a pp stated). I swear I read/heard somewhere that at 18 months you should stop distracting and start disciplining and for some odd reason it's stuck with me. I'm slowly starting to see that 18 months isn't some magic age in which I should abandon distration as a useful tool. Ugh. Luckily I bought Unconditional Parenting yesterday (on page 80 baby!) and it makes WAY more sense to me than all this other stuff people have been feeding me. It just feels *right to me. And I suppose as long as distraction works I should use it huh?
Bingo! It's not as though you would be saying, "Ok DS, if you get out of the truck, I will buy you a toy." You're using the tools that are appropriate, as scubamama said, at any age. When I see a potential battle on the horizon, I immediately start preparing re-direction tools. "Do you know where we're going now?" "Here, play with this little toy car I brought with me." All the while validating his feelings of frustration. And sometimes, there isn't anything you can do to soothe a tantruming DC but hold them, reassure and validate.
 

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But, blind obedience is acting 'because I said so'. No thanks, I'll take questioning and using my own mind any day, even though it is not perfect.
But aren't you then just expecting him to blindly obey the employee because they said so? I mean, you're allowing him to be escorted out, and that implies a certain obedience for a child who didn't want to leave, especially an 18mo. For me it's not a matter of being an authority figure to my son, but to be the person he can always trust by default. So if I tell him that the power has gone out and we need to leave, our relationship is such that he believes me. Whether he wants to leave may be another story, but calling an "authority" figure to give him the heave ho doesn't feel right to me at all.
 

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Quote:

Originally Posted by oceanbaby
But aren't you then just expecting him to blindly obey the employee because they said so? .
I don't think she does (sorry Pat for speaking for you). I think it is a case of "getting a second opinion" that often makes it easier for people to make up their own mind.

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And I suppose as long as distraction works I should use it huh?
Hey, it works even on DH sometimes
So definately no cut-off age
 

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I'm new to all this too... but it's my opinion (as the seasoned mother of a 14-mon-old--lol--I am really NO expert) that sometimes DS is just going to be mad--and that's ok. He doesn't have to be happy with my decisions all the time and he has a right to express his emotions. I would have done everything the way you did. I mean, I see it every day in our house when DS wants to play with my cell phone and I don't let him. I say, "I know you want to play with it, I'm sorry you can't, but it could get broken" and he fusses, and then we do something else. He doesn't have a lot of words so crying etc is really the only way he can express himself. Am I making sense?

I really think we run into the most trouble when we think, oh, he's this age now, now he should be doing this. For me I lose it when I start thinking, gee, he's over a year, he should be going to sleep no problem. When I let go of those expectations and keep my thinking more age-appropriate we all get along a lot better.

ETA I thought from the title this was going to be about how to go to the bathroom without company!!! LOL... would be nice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
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Originally Posted by Qestia
ETA I thought from the title this was going to be about how to go to the bathroom without company!!! LOL... would be nice.
Now that is a question I've never found anyone to know the answer to. Peeing alone just isn't an option! LOL
 

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sorry, my English isn't always that good, What's "peeing alone"?
:
 

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ETA: ok, ok, I really was in a quite serious mood yesterday (we had a death in the family) so once again it didn't even cross my mind it was a joke
Please don't feel the need to curb your humor just because I was humorless yesterday
 

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ooh, sorry missrubyandken, I was joking! I know what peeing alone is, just havent experienced it in so long it seems like I've forgotten!

I think yesterday I was in a wierd sense of humour day. its a rare condition I have but usually the medication keeps it under control.

oops, there I go again
 
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