[LongIsland]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>traycanadian</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7635015"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Thanks for weighing in on this LI. I guess I knew it wasn't going to be as simple as the law makes it seem. I am going to submit the religious exemption and hope for the best.<br><br>
Thanks everyone for helping me work through this.<br><br>
Tracy</div>
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Please keep us posted!

 

[timberwolf]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>traycanadian</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7634955"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Hi there fellow 'Pegger! We moved to Seattle from the 'Peg 6 years ago. Can't say I miss the winters but I do miss the Canadian Constitution at times like this! I think Manitoba only has legislation enforcing measles vax anyway. That would be the only exemption they might ask for.</div>
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Oh Hey there! Yep the winters are still the same, you're not missing out ha ha.<br><br>
I am overall pretty pleased with the laid back atmosphere of vaxing here (so far my GP is very cool). Like I said it is really just next year for a few days a week and then he is in public school which should be fine.<br><br>
Good luck with the system there, hey you could always come home <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"><br><br>
Terri

 

[wednesday]

I am an atheist, meaning I don't believe in the existence of any deity, and I don't agree with or follow any particular religious dogma. I do however hold the religious belief that vaccination is not appropriate for my child. In no way do I feel it is lying or deceptive to claim a religious exemption. The statute in my state does not say that I need to belong to any church or be following any specific dogma to be entitled to the exemption.<br><br>
DH is an attorney and you should hear him on the topic. He's very into the clarity of language in legal statutes, like whether or not they are clearly defined. The simple fact is that you can't define a religious belief in the first place. A religious belief is whatever a person says it is, you can't "prove" or "disprove" what a person says they believe.<br><br>
We don't have a philosophical exemption in NC so it's a moot point for me, but I agree with those who feel a religious exemption is "safer". It really is pretty sacred in our culture that you don't mess with people's religious beliefs, even when they seem kooky.

 

[Deborah]

Well put Wednesday! Religious beliefs do not have to link with or relate to any form of established religion. For example, someone could quite firmly not believe in god, but still believe in an ordered universe where evolutionary forces had created bodies that are capable of coping with illness. Now why couldn't that be a religious belief opposed to vaxing? It doesn't matter what causes the order if you believe in it and feel that it justifies your choice not to vax your child.

 

[knowerofnada]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>wednesday</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I am an atheist, meaning I don't believe in the existence of any deity, and I don't agree with or follow any particular religious dogma. I do however hold the religious belief that vaccination is not appropriate for my child. In no way do I feel it is lying or deceptive to claim a religious exemption. The statute in my state does not say that I need to belong to any church or be following any specific dogma to be entitled to the exemption.</div>
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Deborah</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7647100"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Well put Wednesday! Religious beliefs do not have to link with or relate to any form of established religion.</div>
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ITA that a religious belief does not mean that you have to subscribe to a particular religion; that has been very well established multiple times on this forum and elsewhere, even being written into the laws regarding religious exemption.<br><br>
To clarify -- I was not referring to anyone who held these individual religious beliefs (outside of a particular denomination) as "lying" when claiming the religious exemption. I was ONLY referring to those of us who are admittedly not religious at all, and utlizing rhe religious exemption nonetheless (like myself). I should clarify myself from now on, since I always get misunderstood -- it never fails, no matter how obvious I think it seems to me.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Deborah</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7647100"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">For example, someone could quite firmly not believe in god, but still believe in an ordered universe where evolutionary forces had created bodies that are capable of coping with illness. Now why couldn't that be a religious belief opposed to vaxing? It doesn't matter what causes the order if you believe in it and feel that it justifies your choice not to vax your child.</div>
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In my opinion, no, that is not a religious opposition; that is most definitely a philosophical one. The epitome of a philosophical opposition, in fact. Nothing in your scenario is tied to religion in the least. Spirituality, maaaaaaybe, but not religion <i>per se.</i> They are two entirely different things.

 

[onelilguysmommy]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>traycanadian</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7628074"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Okay. I'm feeling better about this. I just refreshed my memory by looking at the state law re: vax. It apparently applies to all schools, public or private, that are subject to approval by the state board of education. This school is state accredited so I'm assuming they need to follow the letter of the law.<br><br>
So why not a philosophical exemption if the law says they have to take it? Why would a religious exemption be better in this case? If they are both equal as far as the law is concerned.......</div>
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look at it this way- if you ever move to a state without philisophical, youd have to pull religion, right?<br>
okay so then someone miught question why you didnt do it to begin with, etc and it might be a headache....<br><br>
hopoe youve got it worked out!

 

[wednesday]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>knowerofnada</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7647224"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">To clarify -- I was not referring to anyone who held these individual religious beliefs (outside of a particular denomination) as "lying" when claiming the religious exemption. I was ONLY referring to those of us who are admittedly not religious at all, and utlizing rhe religious exemption nonetheless (like myself). I should clarify myself from now on, since I always get misunderstood -- it never fails, no matter how obvious I think it seems to me.<br><br>
In my opinion, no, that is not a religious opposition; that is most definitely a philosophical one. The epitome of a philosophical opposition, in fact. Nothing in your scenario is tied to religion in the least. Spirituality, maaaaaaybe, but not religion <i>per se.</i> They are two entirely different things.</div>
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I didn't mean to suggest you had said anyone was lying...it has just come up in other threads before when other people said they wanted to use an exemption but they were uncomfortable "lying". I simply don't believe that it is lying, when the law clearly states a "religious belief" entitles one to a vaccine exemption, but religious belief is not otherwise defined.<br><br>
And FWIW, I don't believe there is any difference between philosophy and religion. They are one and the same as far as I'm concerned. Look at <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas" target="_blank">Thomas Aquinas</a>, one of history's more famous philosophers, spent his entire life philosophizing about religion. His writings have been extremely influential on what people believe about faith and morality and the existence of a deity. I mean clearly there is substantial overlap between the realms of "philosophy" and "religion," such that to me it is very strange that they're held up as being two separate things.

 

[knowerofnada]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>onelilguysmommy</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7647543"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">look at it this way- if you ever move to a state without philisophical, youd have to pull religion, right?<br>
okay so then someone miught question why you didnt do it to begin with, etc and it might be a headache....</div>
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Excellent point. All but two states have a religious exemption, not as many have a philosopical one. You would need to maintain consistency.<br><br>
So see why it is so compelling? <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/loveeyes.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Loveeyes">:

 

[knowerofnada]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>wednesday</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7647553"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I didn't mean to suggest you had said anyone was lying...it has just come up in other threads before when other people said they wanted to use an exemption but they were uncomfortable "lying". I simply don't believe that it is lying, when the law clearly states a "religious belief" entitles one to a vaccine exemption, but religious belief is not otherwise defined.<br>
.</div>
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Well I'm telling you that what I am doing is lying. It is NOT a religious belief. Period. Multiple people today here have tried to tell me otherwise and I find that slightly offensive. I have no religious opposition to vax, so to me it is lying. I absolutely do not consider religion and philosophy one in the same; that concept is absurd to me. Nor do I consider religion and spirituality one and the same. You can certainly be religious and spiritual, but you can always be spiritual without being religious. These are pretty well-established concepts so having to exlplain them repeatedly today on this forum is frustrating me.<br><br>
Bottom line -- I consider myself to be lying about the religious exemption, and I am angry at myself and at The System for forcing me to do this in order to protect my child in the best way I can. I despise lying and not standing up for what I believe in, and I strongly resent this country for forcing me to choose this path against my principles.<br><br>
Sorry, I know I repeated myself alot. I do that IRL too. I know it's annoying. I guess I feel if I repeat myself enough, someone will eventually understand what I'm trying to say, since I don't explain things well.

 

[wednesday]

I feel like you're taking a really combative tone here and I don't get why? I am not "multiple people" and I have not been "trying to tell you" anything. I am one person who was responding to the OP's thoughts. After you quoted me and seemed to be taking offense, I tried to clarify my POV. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/shrug.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="shrug"> I think I can hold a different POV without that meaning I don't understand your words.

 

[Deborah]

Hey Knowerofnada, the not understanding each other goes both ways. By your definition of religion you are lying, by my definition of religion you are not. But your definition is definitely the one you live with, so if you say you are lying, then you are.<br><br>
And I do agree with you that it is lousy that the current laws require people to define themselves as "religious" in order to protect their children from toxic drugs...or homeschool. Since defining themselves as religious is, in fact, offensive to people, these laws are unfair.<br><br>
I just like philosophical arguments and meant absolutely nothing personal about you or your beliefs.<br><br>
For me the religious, the spiritual and the philosophical do shade into each other.

 

[Deborah]

I wanted to add that the whole question of what is or is not "religion" is an incredibly complex and confusing one.<br><br>
Religion includes: ancient and modern paganism (and paganism is a very broad term covering hundreds, if not thousands of variations); shamanism; every possible variation on monotheism; every oddball cult and group that call themselves a religion; voodoo; wicca and probably many things I've forgotten and overlooked; for example Buddhism.<br><br>
So, please, someone tell me what all these varieties of "religion" have in common? And what is this common factor that makes it impossible for some people to describe themselves as religious?<br><br>
I could see it if we could define religion to just include the major modern religious sects: Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism and Mohammedanism, but that is, IMO, very unfair to all the other varieties of religious belief and experience. If someone wants to worship the Olympian gods...more power to 'em! Or nature spirits. Or truth, goodness and beauty. The Ancient Greeks used to sacrifice to rivers before they crossed over them. A matter of courtesy AND appeasement.<br><br>
I like the quirkiness and diversity of the human picture and delight in the odder bits of human history. And much of our religious history definitely qualifies as odder bits (for the record I disapprove of human or animal sacrifices).

 

[traycanadian]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>timberwolf</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7646732"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Oh Hey there! Yep the winters are still the same, you're not missing out ha ha.<br><br>
I am overall pretty pleased with the laid back atmosphere of vaxing here (so far my GP is very cool). Like I said it is really just next year for a few days a week and then he is in public school which should be fine.<br><br>
Good luck with the system there, hey you could always come home <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/winky.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="Wink"><br><br>
Terri</div>
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Well, I have thought of coming home......briefly.....then I talk to my sister after a 40 below stretch and come to my senses! We'd love to move to Vancouver or Victoria though.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>wednesday</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7646845"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">DH is an attorney and you should hear him on the topic. He's very into the clarity of language in legal statutes, like whether or not they are clearly defined. The simple fact is that you can't define a religious belief in the first place. A religious belief is whatever a person says it is, you can't "prove" or "disprove" what a person says they believe.<br><br>
We don't have a philosophical exemption in NC so it's a moot point for me, but I agree with those who feel a religious exemption is "safer". It really is pretty sacred in our culture that you don't mess with people's religious beliefs, even when they seem kooky.</div>
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>knowerofnada</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7647224"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">ITA that a religious belief does not mean that you have to subscribe to a particular religion; that has been very well established multiple times on this forum and elsewhere, even being written into the laws regarding religious exemption.</div>
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ITA with you guys. It's not that I disagree that the religious exemption is appropriate for my situation. I actually do believe there is a greater power that guides us but I just don't think any organized religion (that I've come across. Admittedly I haven't really felt the need to look too hard because I'm very comfortable with my personal beliefs and have never felt the need to join any organized group to share with) really does it justice imo.<br><br>
My beef with the religious exemption is that I just think it's unfair that we are forced to fall back on a religious belief to defend what isn't necessarily a decision that has anything to do with religion. Sure, I believe that whatever greater power it was that guided us into creation included some pretty amazing mechanisms that allow us to fight disease and even heal ourselves. What I don't believe is that any government has the right to force medical treatment on me or my child.<br><br>
So, really I guess the reason I don't vax my kid is because I don't feel it's necessary because of a somewhat religious belief. However, I don't feel that that is anyone's business but my own and I should have the right to refuse vaccines even if I do believe they are of value. It should be my choice. In other words, I don't feel I'm lying if I submit a religious exemption, I would just rather be able to comfortably use a philosophical exemption to object to the practice of forced vaccination.<br><br>
As I said before, I will do whatever it takes. But I don't have to like it!<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>onelilguysmommy</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7647543"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">look at it this way- if you ever move to a state without philisophical, youd have to pull religion, right?<br>
okay so then someone miught question why you didnt do it to begin with, etc and it might be a headache....</div>
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That's a very good point. For us, however, there's very little chance we'll live anywhere else in the US. If we ever move again, it'll be back to Canada. We love it here in the Pacific Northwest - the weather is nice, the people are amazing, and we still get CBC-TV on cable (a must for my hockey-loving husband). And we're only a couple hours drive from Canada!<br><br>
Still, I am in agreement that the religious exemption is the way to go. Like I said, I'll do what it takes.<br><br>
Thanks again for a great discussion on this subject!<br><br>
Tracy

 

[traycanadian]

Well, I took the paperwork over to the school this morning. The director shuffled through the papers, glanced briefly at the exemption form and asked if I knew about the requirement to keep my kid home if there is an outbreak. I said yes. He went on to explain (or maybe defend himself) saying that it had nothing to do with the school (I took this to mean that if he had it his way, the unvaxed kids would be able to stay) but that the Public Health Dept. tells them what to do in those cases (ie. they tell the school to send all the unvaxed home). Then he said they've never had to send unvaxed kids home due to an outbreak in the 30 years he's run the school. Feeling good right now.

 

[LongIsland]

Glad it worked out!!!

 

[knowerofnada]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>traycanadian</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7672495"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">Well, I took the paperwork over to the school this morning. The director shuffled through the papers, glanced briefly at the exemption form and asked if I knew about the requirement to keep my kid home if there is an outbreak. I said yes. He went on to explain (or maybe defend himself) saying that it had nothing to do with the school (I took this to mean that if he had it his way, the unvaxed kids would be able to stay) but that the Public Health Dept. tells them what to do in those cases (ie. they tell the school to send all the unvaxed home). Then he said they've never had to send unvaxed kids home due to an outbreak in the 30 years he's run the school. Feeling good right now.</div>
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Awesome news. I pray our family's experiences are similar when the time comes for them to enter private school. So did you stick with the religious exemption?

 

[traycanadian]

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>knowerofnada</strong> <a href="/community/forum/post/7674932"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">So did you stick with the religious exemption?</div>
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Of course! You don't think I'd solicit 2 pages of wise-mama opinions and then just ignore them, do you? Okay, well, I might....but not this time! Religious all the way. Thanks ladies!

 

[xmasbaby7]

I am so glad this worked out, and I appreciated reading everyone's very thoughtful comments on religion and identity. I had felt so many of the same frustrations about religious exemption in the beginning, too, but the form vaguely defines it as "deeply held personal belief" and that couldn't be more accurate for most of us here, and all of us in this thread.