why is ds hurting people?

We have this problem too, and the social difficulties it causes. My sympathies.

There could be lots of reasons depending on who is looking at your son. I would get an occupational therapy evaluation done on him for sensory issues. I would also take him to a psychologist or a behaviour team for evaluation. If your insurance won't fund these, and you are in the USA, then tell your local school district in writing that you want him evaluated and pester them until they do.

We saw a behaviour team and a psychologist when my older son was nearly three, after his ped had fobbed us off and told us he was at the extreme end of normal at 2 1/2. The psychologist told us he had good empathy and good attachment and it was 'breakout' violence rather than any kind of emotional disorder, and that he would mellow out by kindergarten. We still think that the doc was right about the cause of the hitting, but wrong that it would mellow out. When this year my son was very unhappy in preschool and still having problems at age four (he's now 4.10), we took him for an OT evaluation and he was diagnosed with sensory processing disorder. He LOVED the OT visit and we are very hopeful that occupational therapy will help him feel more comfortable and less frustrated and high strung. I wish we had not waited so long, but more aggressively pursued our sense that something was wrong.

I don't think you're over-reacting. It would be a good idea to try to get this sorted out before kindergarten. Even if there is really not much at all going on, I bet your son will ENJOY the evaluations: mine loves them!

I agree with addax, he needs an evaluation. You're not crazy, the things he's doing sound like something is definitely up, my guess is sensory integration issues.

Here's a link for you to give a look-see:

http://www.out-of-sync-child.com/examples.html

I have no advice but just wanted to say that so many things you have said are true for my DS.

Thank you for the thoughtful posts! I really feel like I just need some support in this, and to talk with people who have been there.
Finch, thanks for the link, I'm going to look into that a little more.

this is really hard for me. I don't like the idea of having him evaluated, but I certainly see that it would be helpful. I just really want to help him be a kind, happy person, but I just don't know how. I feel so torn. I want everything to be fine, and in so many ways he's just a normal 4 year old. But then there are things that are clearly not right about him (like not being able to hold a fork or pen properly, and not drawing things intentionally until a month ago!)

how do I find an ot who will be understanding of AP and NFL. I'm worried because dh has some trauma from his speech therapy when he was about 6 - I don't want ds to feel that way. we're unschoolers, so really, we want to do this naturally, and ourselves (as much as possible) am I delusional to think that's realistic?

I have to say that in my experience so far, if you find an OT who is experienced in sensory issues, it will be much more of a challenge to find an OT whose approach is NOT compatible with AP. Others might chime in with different experiences, but if you read the Out of Sync Child (Kranowitz) you'll see how compatible sensory-focused therapy is with respect for the child and his needs. It's all about teaching children how to seek out for themselves the sensory experiences that feed their physical needs and help them to feel centered. Take a look at the Alert Program website too: the tagline is 'how does your engine run'. My son loved his evaluation. Any activity that he didn't want to do, they didn't press him. Any activity that made him fearful or uncomfortable, they immediately stopped. And the activities he liked, he REALLY liked. I've heard of a couple of children who just did not enjoy the OT therapy at all: both were older, and in both cases the OT herself suggested it would be better to back off.

Hope that helps. I so completely understand your hesitation!

Fiona

Get a proper eval asap.

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I remember reading an article talking about how violence isn't 'learned' its learned out...that violent children really behave like 2 year olds....grab, hit, smack when something is taken, bite...

He's missing the ablity, impulse control to stop his feelings from being expressed physically. Behavioral therapy will be your best bet, he needs to learn how to behave in stressful situations. (dd worked wonders for her, her friends were terrified of her, people though I was a crazy bad mother and should beat her......yeah that would stop a kid from hitting others?)

1. What does he get/not get when he does these violent actions? He needs to know that the result of violence is worth controlling himself, have him communicate how he's feeling, tell you when he wants to hit, get a system on how to deal with these behaviors...buying a book on explosive kids will help you emmotionally to not internalize it but to go through the steps laid out in whatever method you choose so there is consistancy and you don't loose your mind or try 101 different approaches.

2. play therapy between you and him. this will build trust, you may have attachment but trust for him to be able to tell you how he is feeling when he is feeling bad things (like wanting to hurt). It helps them to learn calming activities, kids with authority issues I think like it as its an even playing field you are both students of the teacher (therapist).

If he gets overstimulated easily, keep his playdates short. Let him know he has an out (even older kids with behavioral issues in school are allowed out of class if they can't stay) there's an activity, a walkman, he can do alone. Put yourself in his shoes, remember he may not like all his friends, kids pick up on other kids with short fuses and push the buttons....also I find behavioral kids are highly moral, they often go off when they think things aren't fair, when kids are being braggy etc.

I don't think theres anything terribly wrong with your son, he needs to learn impulse control and have methods of coping with stress. I think with the proper behavioral therapy, play therapy and some family counselling (to make sure your home environment isn't feeding into his issues, his anger, and that you have a united methodology for dealing with issues, that you have an expert to field questions as most dh hate to hear what dw has read, but will hear from the expert). There might be a dx of odd, adhd, sid but even with all of those your son has to learn to control himself.

my jonas told dh and I today why he cannot wear jeans. He says they are scratchy all over, and that it doesn't help when he wears pj pants under them - they still hurt! I'm glad he was able to verbalize so well how he felt about it, but it's hard to hear it from him. Helf of me wants to believe that he's just stubborn, especially because that's how I've been treating him, and this means that I've pushed into something that makes him uncomfortable.

On a lighter note, we went hiking today with a group of friends (mostly older children) and it went fairly well! we also did put bird seed in a bin and he and his sister played and played with it! He seems to be in a much better mood today, too, and I think that's why! He even ate the green foods in the stir fry at dinner.

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Classic sign of sensory processing disorder right there. Did you get a chance to look at that link I posted?

He definitely needs an eval asap.

I wouldn't be so quick to jump to the autism dx.
He's obviously experiencing some SID, but that is very common with bright people. The jeans hurting him too much to bear the thought of wearing them again....

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Bright sensitive kids are often very moral, you need to get him some books on the appropriate policing responses. Also since he's drawn to authority and black and white he might benefit from a special friend (policeman, fireman, pastor) someone he sees is 'the law' I'd go for the police officer as they can explain good guys vs bad guys and that police want to bring peace not hurt people even when they are bad, that you want to hurt the bad guy everyone does but you can't as that would make you a bad guy too.

He's 4 why not give him a journal, even if its pictoral so he can feel powerful by journalling his feelings.... so when someone does something that bugs him he can draw it out, keep a running tally of how many times...

Also he has to be told the rules he has are for him, you should have seen my dd freak out at school when one kid didn't have good table manners.... I had to explain the rules we have are for her alone and other children may not have rules....

Also what about a pet? Neighbours dog? Often violent children respond very well to the underdog, a smaller child, a small pet. They want the responsiblity of being in control of someone else, someone they can tell their feelings to. If you don't have a pet just for him, borrow a neighbours dog a few times a week, he could teach the dog tricks.

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Oh she's so been waiting to help you and I applaud her for being so polite, but ask!! She knows how hard it is for you she sees it all the time, why not ask her out for a you pay dinner/lunch and ask for her help?

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Oh no, you need to understand sensitive kids its a whole different language those pants hurt him, overstimulate him to the point he's going to get cranky and get that flight or fight response...I know I am SID myself... but I am an adult I can leave...I can do things, kids are trapped.... apples were not eaten in my home as a kid as the noise (associated by me at two accidentally biting into an onion) the noise of someone eating an apple was painful to me, I would loose it.....

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I think you will find his mood will get better when he thinks you understand him, you can speak his language and you know why he gets upset. next step is to get him to communicate before he blows.... give him control. If he's playing outside with other kids what about a walkytalky so if he needs to be extracted you can go.

also just cause he is violent don't assume the other kids aren't intentionally pushing his buttons... and remember all feelings are valid, so you can agree with him why he feels the way he does, its natural to want to hurt people trust me I have a list somedays! Then redirect.

Also get dh on board with the don't assume he's being stubborn or strange. If he feels safe to speak then he will let you into his interesting little world... where fabrics feel much different, sounds take on whole new meanings

he also needs self soothing activities, a walkman might help him when he wants to shut out noise. set out some code words, often a kid doesn't want to say mom these kids are driving me up the wall I want to go home, I want a few minutes...having him say hey mom its going to rain tomorrow...lets him save face.

A camera might help him to be in control in a healthy way. Planting a garden that has just his plants.

keep up the good work mama.
And remember its so hard to be little!!!

My son is a bit older, but we're still dealing with the hitting (we can certainly see improvement). My son has sensory issues, ADHD and obsessive compulsive behaviors (he also has Tourette's syndrome, which can add frustration at times).

I would definitely look at an OT eval. If he has fine motor delays, it often helps get OT paid for by insurance. OT has been very good for us, and DS loves it, but it hasn't resulted in miracles.

I would recommend at least learning a bit about OCD in children, because sometimes children treated for sensory issues are actually having "just right" compulsions that would be treated more successfully with cognitive behavioral therapy--but that's just my take because I have a child on that spectrum. The jeans experience does sound more like a sensory issue (A need to adjust socks until each feels exactly the same as the other is more of a OC flag).

I, too, wouldn't jump to autism conclusions. You would be looking for expressions of empathy and evidence of or lack of over-literalism or an inability to engage in imaginitive play (in which the stick becomes a spoon to stir soup or a pencil becomes a plane). Kids with impulsivity issues will often have social impairment, motor delays (especially fine motor), speech delays (especially early on), and sensory issues, so it can be hard to tell.

I can say in my experience that it does get better, it just gets better more slowly.

My favorite book on dealing with this is probably The Explosive Child by Ross Greene, although I am feeling the need for more in working with a younger child.

Sherri

Just chiming in to say that we deal w/ the hitting too. I think you can try to work on things yourself... educate yourself and put in lots of time. There are ppl out there who can help too though, and teach you things that you may not learn from a book, yk?

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A lot of this rings true for us in my family, too. My son is an academically gifted, intense and highly sensitive 5.5 year old who has suffered from severe anxiety and ocd behaviors (and I have always suspected some mild Tourette's...) and experienced major bouts of "violent" outbursts towards other children and adult care providers between the ages of 3.5 and 4.5 years old. The violence (hitting, pinching, nasty screaming) was SO out of character for him that it freaked me out, in addition to making life difficult for him and all of us. He has been treated for anxiety with play therapy once a week and now sees his therapist only once each month. He is no longer exhibiting any violent outbursts and is on a several month spurt with no ocd behaviors. The therapist helped me understand that ds was simply feeling awful- afraid (major death obsession/fear) and very insecure about life and the world...and a young child contemplating such heavy issues will "act out" because he doesn't necessarily know what else to do with those strong feelings. You may want to look into anxiety of some kind in addition to the sensory issues. I wouldn't leap to autism at all.