[Peppermint]

Since becoming an intactivist, I have started talking to all of my friends and even some aquaintences about circ.. I tell them all kind of things- no health benefits, God created boys just right (not in need of immediate surgical correction), the risks, on and on and on--- all of the stuff I have learned here. So- why is it that the majority (not ALL

)of women I speak with don't seem to "get it" or really care until I talk about the sexual benefits to women (less friction, less lubrication needed, etc)? Is it just my group of friends that need to see "what is in it for them"?

 

[woobysma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jess7396 less friction, less lubrication needed, etc

I think these are issues A LOT of women have, and a lot of them have been convinced it is their problem. I was until coming to this board. Most of us have had a UTI or yeast infection, etc and we know these aren't any big deal to cure (most of the time) - but you find a way we can make sex more comfortable and we'll jump on that!! Even if it doesn't directly affect our own sex lives, it's something we can do for all our sons' future partners.

 

[Frankly Speaking]

Patty:

There has been quite a bit of publicity in the media in the last few years about women who become extremely sensitive in their genital regions at about 40-50 years old. This is about the same time as menopause when the female body begins producing much less vaginal fluid. There is a name I can't think of right now but its something like Female "Something" Disorder that causes pain during intercourse. Some women suffer such pain that they give up on sex. I suspect that some of these women have heard about this and make the connection. Of course, vaginal dryness can strike at any age so it may be that they are seeing it already and make the connection that they are normal, it's their partners that are not normal and are the root cause of their problems.

All of a sudden, it hits home for them and it's not something that doesn't affect them. They will say that their husbands have no problem or that they have never heard of a man complain that he was circumcised and they believe everything they are saying. But they also remember the last time after sex when it felt like someone stuck a hot poker in their vagina and all of a sudden, it begins to start making sense. It hits home! Now they can clearly begin to see the benefits of an intact lover and that is when their brain goes over the hump. If you're right about that, then all of your messages begin to have credibility too. Suddenly, they can start putting the pieces together that not only is there benefits to the women but benefits to the men as well.

Frank

 

[Peppermint]

Oh, I understand the benefit- I am (unfortunately) one of those women who could greatly benefit- TMI I know.

I am curious though- why THIS part is more of an eye-opener than say, the fact that circ. is NOT a medically advised thing (not needed for the boys), actually harms the boys greatly, etc. My first son is circ.ed in part b/c I thought there were medical reasons to do so. When deciding never to do that to another boy, his future wife's pleasure was on my list- but far down below his health and such for reasons why NOT to circ.. I mean, if it were shown to me tomorrow (for arguments sake) that circ. actually makes sex better for women, I still would not consider having my second son cut. I guess I want to know why the empathy is not mainly with the son.

Women just relate better to our own hardships? (again, some women

)

 

[Peppermint]

So, I am thinking, should I START with this aspect, so that maybe whatever else I say will be better heard? Do other people find this to be common?

 

[3 little birds]

I have noticed this too and think that it is because it gives the foreskin a purpose. Then they can no longer think of it as "just a flap of skin".

 

[nikirj]

Or it could be that at this point, they suddenly realize that this procedure can cause an actual non-imagined problem (and not just negate a benefit) that isn't one of those 'rare side-effects'.

 

[LianneM]

I don't mean to be dense, but could someone point me to the info about the difference in the sexual experience of the woman with circed/intact men? I've never been with a circed man, so I have no idea personally, and have never had any problem with my intact DH. Thanks.

Off to search...

LOL OK nevermind - I did search and found several threads with posts that said, "I won't go into detail so as not to get the thread pulled" and I certaianly don't want that to happen either! Thanks for the heads up and I'll keep reading.

 

[Sustainer]

I don't think it's self-interest. I think one of the major causes of circ is the myth that women prefer the circ'd penis. I think many mothers are really trying to look out for their sons' best interest. They don't want him to be rejected by women. By explaining that the foreskin actually makes sex better for the woman, you are clearing up that myth, and removing their reason to circ.

 

[Frankly Speaking]

Patty:

I know this sounds awfully hard and I also know that many will deny it to their grave but it's not them that are getting the painful genital surgery. They would never consider this for themselves.

How many women do you know that would submit themselves to unanesthesized genital surgery that had no or insubstantial benefits? Yet these same women will submit their sons to it without a second thought. How many intact men will submit their sons to this procedure but will not do it to themselves? Obviously from looking at circumcision rates of the late 1980's and early 1990's, about 90% of them will. However, there is no corresponding rush of adult men or women to have this same surgery on themselves even when full anesthesia is provided. As a matter of fact, almost all would vigorously fight it if they thought they would be strapped down against their will and be surgically modified without their consent. It's called self preservation and while an infant is well endowed with the instinct of self preservation, he has no means of asserting the instinct. I can guarantee you that if infants could speak up for themselves, none would choose painful genital surgery over being left alone.

The response to information about pain for women from circumcised sex hits home. A man that experiences pain due to his circumcision will be easily convinced not to circumcise his son but if he has experienced no pain as an adult, most will quickly send his son to the chopping block while he would never consent to the same surgery for himself under the same conditions. It's self preservation that does not extend to others, not even their own children.

Frank

 

[Sarah]

Lianne- this article should explain it to you... and the thread will not get pulled:

http://www.boystoo.com/medical/conversion.htm

And to the op... when I was at the ACOG convention a foreign dr told me a joke which I had never head before about circumcision- and I thought I had heard them all... amazingly this one had the stroke of truth in it which I thought made it good, not funny... but not a boo-hiss.... just the old stab in the heart.

condensed and translated version...
A baby in the nursery gets circumcised and cries hysterically.
Another baby begins to wail... the nurse asks him what's the matter and he says, "I'm next!"
Yet another baby begins to wail, the nurse says, "Come now, why are you crying... you are a girl, you have nothing to worry about!" The little baby girl replies... "I am crying because they are sharpening them for me!"

(let me clarify, the sex organ of the boys is being sharpened to hurt the girl's vagina in the future... this joke acknowledges that circumcing a man will cause his penis to become a much more painful experience for any woman he makes love to... this "joke" acknowledges that circumcision changes a woman's sexual experience)

If only all the american circumcing OBs could get the 2+2 that the damage they are doing to a boy today, the damage someone else did to a boy 30 or 40 or 50 years ago... is manifested in all the sexually disfunctioning adult women partners of circumcised men struggling with their inability to compensate for the missing function which the normal human genital pair would have- had it not been artificially crippled.

Love Sarah

 

[Peppermint]

Thanks for all the thoughts on this, and the joke to Sarah- I have to say one of my biggest annoyances is OBs who KNOW the problems with circ. from both sides, but STILL DO THEM! GRRRR!

Let me say that it's not just women who seem to be thinking of only themselves, as Frank pointed out- men who are circ.ed (like my dh) would have to admit that they are missing something to agree circ. is wrong. It is just that I mainly talk to women about it, b/c in my experience, the woman really has the say. Most of my friends and family, the woman rules the roost so to speak, when it comes down to it, my first son's circ. is MY FAULT, seriously, I love my dh, but I definitely make the major decisions around here, esp. concerning the kids- and most of my friends families are the same way. I find that women are at least open to talking about it (though many say "it's gross" at first), whereas men seem happy with status quo, and definitely don't want to talk about circ.. (I have to point out too, that the majority of my friends and family are pretty "mainstream" with other issues too, I certainly see a different side of "Mothering" here, thank God!

)

On a good note, my dh, once needing major convincing on this issue, said the other day "Wait, you wouldn't want him to have it done as an adult-when he could be anesthetized (I know I spelled that wrong)- but you want him cut as a baby, with little to no pain blocking?" ~During a conversation I was having with a friend.

I saw Frank say elsewhere that the change will come with mothers who talk to other mothers, etc. I agree, but has anyone had luck talking to Dr.s (OBs and pediatricians) about just no longer doing them? I have asked my friends who did it, if they would've sought out another Dr. to do it, had their OB and pediatrician not been willing and said it was against medical advice, almost all say "no".

 

[Peppermint]

sbf- I just re-read your post, and that definitely puts this issue in a better light, that she doesn't want to see her son rejected, as opposed to just "looking out for his future partner". I'd like to think that is the reason, as opposed to what I was assuming. I like to believe that all mothers would put their babies interests first

.

 

[LianneM]

Thanks Sarah! That link is chock full of great info!