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<p><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica;font-size:small;"><span class="spnMessageText" id="user_msg">I'm amazed, that even these modern times, the majority of women I know seem to delight in playing games with men - everything from playing hard to get to not being available if a guy asks for a date on short notice to waiting on the guy to make every move. Not returning his calls or emails for several days afterward or even at all - they think he has to do ALL the work. And I mean ALL.<br><br>
I'm almost 42. I don't have the temperament to play games nor do I like it when people (even friends) play them with me, so I try not to do that with others. I'm plain-spoken and playing the "will he or won't he?" thing just makes me nuts. I've got female friends who are absolutely *horrified* that I've asked two guys out for coffee over the past few months. Met both at local church events.<br><br>
First guy said no. Turned out to be for the best (I later learned some not-so-nice things about him).<br><br>
Second guy said yes to coffee (said he was happy I'd asked) - after we'd first been emailing, as well going back and forth on Facebook at least every other day for a bit more than a month (he found me on FB through mutual friends. I didn't seek him out first, although we traded contact info. He seems interested, so far. I like second guy much better (then the first guy). He lives more than an hour away from me with no traffic - we're on opposite ends of a very large metropolitan area. We're just trying to work out our schedules, as we're both very busy.<br><br>
But back to my female friends - when they found out second guy said yes to coffee date, it was universal that I heard, "You can't make any more moves. Period. He has to contact you first. You can't bring up the coffee date any more until he gives a date that works with his schedule THEN you can talk about it."<br><br>
I'm apparently also not supposed to mention the words "marriage" or "wedding" at all, even in the context of second guy asking me what I did over the weekend, and I mentioned I was the photographer for a friend's wedding (second guy has seen my work, photos of various events, and loves it).</span></span> It just floored me that women actually think this!</p>
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<p><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica;font-size:small;"><span class="spnMessageText">I should note that this advice was unsolicited by me, and virtually all of it was from women who've been married 20+ years, so they're a little out of touch on the dating scene. Only one woman had been married in the past couple of years, but she's European and said a woman asking a man out wouldn't happen in her culture. The only married woman who supported me in what I'd done was is as outspoken and direct as I am.<br><br>
This just seems so stupid. I'm almost 42. If a guy asks me what I'm looking for, relationship-wise, I'm sure as heck not going to hem and haw. I don't believe in wasting time with someone who is not a fit for me, who doesn't have the same values, etc. If a guy asks me towards the beginning getting to know each other if marriage is my goal, you can be sure I'm going to say yes and be honest.</span></span></p>
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<p><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica;font-size:small;"><span class="spnMessageText">I don't "wear the pants" in a relationship and certainly don't initiate everything, but I see little point these days in not showing a guy I'm interested, asking him out for coffee, and occasionally emailing or calling NOT in response to communication from him.<br><br>
There have got to be more women out there who don't pu$$y foot around with men, but I think I only know one IRL - and she's in the middle of a doctoral dissertation and has *no* time to talk.<br><br>
I guess you could say, in Shakespearean language, that I'm a "forward wench." :)</span></span></p>
 
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<p>I'm right there with you. I hate games. I hate playing them, I hate being played.</p>
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<p>I basically throw out all the gender roles if I can. I hate the passive whatever-you-like-sweetie woman ideal, and to be honest, I have done a lot of reading, and men don't like this either. It's too difficult to "guess" what a woman wants, and then they are called insensitive for not knowing.</p>
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<p>I agree with you. If you're looking for marriage, why should you say you aren't? You aren't telling these guys that you want to marry THEM and TOMORROW, so it shouldn't matter. You're saving them the trouble of pursuing a relationship that turns out to be more serious than they are interested in, and you're saving yourself time if that's not what they're looking for. There's no reason you can't be friends, or just "see where it goes" if you aren't sure.</p>
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<p>Direct communication is so so important to me. I find I get so much more fulfilling relationships, so much more self-confidence, and so much less stress when I just SAY WHAT I FEEL and make my needs known. There are tactful ways to do this. There is a difference between assertive and aggressive. I hate the idea that women shouldn't have feelings or needs or that they should hide things to make a man feel "manly". I think, if that's important to him, he can handle doing that all by himself. :)</p>
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<p>And yes, I wear the pants in my relationship. So does my husband. We're both pants kinda people.</p>
 

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<p>I'm probably a very wrong person to reply to this kind of post, as I haven't been dating for 15 years. :D  I don't see why you have to care what other women are doing and what your friends are saying, especially at 42.  The only problem I can see is a confident, straight forward kind of woman sometimes tend to attract shy, insecure guys who are unsure about their own feelings.  If you're OK with dating that kind of guy then by all means go for it, it's just you'll probably be the leading one in the relationship.  If you don't like that kind of guys just be prepared to turn them down, not every guy you attract will be like that, of course. :)</p>
 

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Poddi</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1281023/women-do-you-play-games-with-men#post_16064821"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>I'm probably a very wrong person to reply to this kind of post, as I haven't been dating for 15 years. :D  I don't see why you have to care what other women are doing and what your friends are saying, especially at 42.  The only problem I can see is a confident, straight forward kind of woman sometimes tend to attract shy, insecure guys who are unsure about their own feelings.  If you're OK with dating that kind of guy then by all means go for it, it's just you'll probably be the leading one in the relationship.  If you don't like that kind of guys just be prepared to turn them down, not every guy you attract will be like that, of course. :)</p>
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<br><br><p>It was more of being surprised as all get out at the unsolicited advice. Not necessarily that it was unsolicited, but the content! :p</p>
 

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<p>Mabye it is just my age (21) but I would never consider doing that... it wouldn't even cross my mind unless someone were to tell me I shouldn't respond to emails or ask someone out first or any of that ridiculousness.  None of the people I am close to would think it makes sense either.  A couple girls might be too SHY to make the first move in a lot of areas, but they certainly wouldn't think they SHOULDN'T.</p>
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<p>of course, I was the girl in 8th grade wondering why the heck everyone cared so much about having a date to a stupid 2 hour after school dance with all our teachers there watching and wondering why none of the girls would just ASK the guys they were 'hoping' would ask them.  I AM the daughter of an independent (sometimes more aggressive than independent... ) and outspoken single mom though...</p>
 

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<p>The only reason to play games is if you want your partner to play mind games with you for the duration of your relationship.</p>
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<p>There are men who go for this - I have no idea why.  Dh's best friend has been married for 10+ years to a woman who does this all. the. time.  And he's not that way in his interactions with us - but apparently either he loves her in spite of it, or because of it.  Beats me which it is? </p>
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<p>I don't play games and never have.  I'm also an "ice queen," though - I was always very awkward and uncomfortable around guys I liked and tended to avoid them.  :(  Not because I wanted to be chased but because I felt awkward.  And even though I knew it was counterproductive! </p>
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<p>Dh and I have been open with each other about our relationship and expectations/needs since we first became friends - I can't imagine wanting to manipulate our relationship. </p>
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<p>If a guy doesn't respond well to your personality, it's better to find out right away instead of pretending to be some other person and then gradually bringing out the "real" you.  One would hope that the guy would respond to your openness with his own openness. </p>
 

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<p>I swear, I saw your title, and the first thought that popped into my head was, "Well, sure I do. Settlers of Catan, Taboo, Ticket To Ride, Puerto Rico..." I thought you meant BOARD GAMES.</p>
 

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>tinuviel_k</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1281023/women-do-you-play-games-with-men#post_16064867"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>I swear, I saw your title, and the first thought that popped into my head was, "Well, sure I do. Settlers of Catan, Taboo, Ticket To Ride, Puerto Rico..." I thought you meant BOARD GAMES.</p>
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<br><br><p>LOL</p>
 

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<p>Well, I made it very clear to DH before we started dating that I wasn't planning on dating him just for the heck of it. So he pretty much knew that asking me out was signing on to probable marriage, a dozen kids, homeschooling, being the sole breadwinner, cosleeping and so on... most of which were new concepts to him. As it happened, he didn't run for the hills, and here we are about to celebrate our 4-year anniversary. But if he had, I wouldn't have considered it a failure. I had no interest in being with someone who wasn't heading in the same direction as me.</p>
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<p>And yes, the whole pop-psychology "let him make the first move or he'll think you're desperate" thing strikes me as a bit pathetic. If his masculinity is threatened by you asking him out for coffee, he's probably not a guy you want to marry. :p</p>
 

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<p>Well according to The Rules (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&tag=motheringhud-20&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FRules-TM-Time-Tested-Secrets-Capturing%2Fdp%2F0446518131%2Fref%3Dsr_1_2%3Fie%3DUTF8%26qid%3D1290418249%26sr%3D8-2" rel="norewrite" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Rules-TM-Time-Tested-Secrets-Capturing/dp/0446518131/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1290418249&sr=8-2</a>) that is what is supposed to happen.</p>
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<p>According to 195 people who reviewed The Rules, you (the OP) are right on the money saying its a load of crap.</p>
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<p>My feelings can be summed up here <a href="http://xkcd.com/800/" target="_blank">http://xkcd.com/800/</a></p>
 

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Tradd</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1281023/women-do-you-play-games-with-men#post_16064719"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p><br><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica;font-size:small;"><span class="spnMessageText">I guess you could say, in Shakespearean language, that I'm a "forward wench." :)</span></span></p>
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<br><br><p>If this is code for having self-respect, then sure!  ;-)</p>
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<p>I'm 47 and have been married since I was 23; my close friends are mostly in the same demographic.  I can't think of any among them who'd give me advice other than to be myself and pay attention to what works best for me.</p>
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<p>Hadn't looked at "The Rules" before . . . that is scary.</p>
 

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<p>While I am a no nonsense ice queen myself, I think the wording "games" is misleading. there IS a mating dance done among humans. It's not a trap or a game it's just how many people fall in love. Some men are not excited by a woman who on the first date tells them their entire history and what they expect out of a man. It's too much. Some men do not consider a commitment to a woman who owns her body and has sex on the first date. It gives the illusion that she does this often and it doesn't mean much to her and good lord knows what she's carrying.</p>
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<p>I guess you can call human nature a game. It tends to follow the same patterns decade after decade. But in many relationships the dance is what it's all about. That falling period makes the world go round.</p>
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<p>Having said all the mushy crap I am too old for that and don't really care; but I can see how it is important and not some fake silly thing to most people. the wondering, the anticipation, the NOT knowing.. is all very exciting. take it away and all you have is a boring 50 year old marriage before the first day.</p>
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<p>Not sure I could do that dance again in my lifetime. I'm probably too hum bug now. But I respect it as much as a want to puke on the mushy love birds :p</p>
 

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<p>It's perfectly fine for a female to be the one to ask another person out. I mean if that weren't the case how would lesbians get dates. <img alt="orngtongue.gif" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/orngtongue.gif"></p>
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<p>When I was still dating, I was oftentimes the one who initiated the relationship. I asked my husband out. </p>
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<p>However, I do agree that there comes a point where you should back off and let the other person make the next move. Maybe it's just me, but I always liked to give the other person an opportunity to express interest in me on their own. It's not a "game". It's just a pause in your technique to allow a tactful rejection. I didn't want our entire relationship to be me taking them by the hand and dragging them all the way to the altar. It's okay for a woman to ask a person out. It's not okay for one person in a relationship to ask for all the dates. Same goes for if a guy initiates the dating. If the guy was the one to ask me out I'd still be sure to ask him out on a follow up date if we hit it off.</p>
 

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<p>i think its a personality issue. some do the dance, some just cant do it.</p>
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<p>some men prefer the dance. some want nothing to do with it.</p>
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<p>however the majority i have found are men who ARE wanting the dance. they feel too 'threatened' by women taking the lead.</p>
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<p>so in my experience teh dancers get more dates. however i was never into any of that kind of nonsense and have always been upfront. many of the guys at my schoool reuinion told me they were scared of asking me out when i was in high school.</p>
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<p>i have my life pretty full these days. barely any time for myself. i constantly get - oh you SHOULD date. you need to date. you need to go out and have fun. uhmmmm NO!!!! dating is not fun in my books. takes too much energy out of me. i wont unless i find someone really interesting that peaks my interest. i'd rather read a book or go to the movies by myself.</p>
 

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>meemee</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1281023/women-do-you-play-games-with-men#post_16065216"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>so in my experience teh dancers get more dates. </p>
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<br><br><p>See, I've always noticed the opposite. Those who don't play the games get way more dates! I didn't play the games and I always had dates. I had guys lining up. At one point in time, one of my relationships ended and one of my guy friends called me up the next day "So, I heard you two broke up. I just wanted to let you know I'm interested in you. I know you'll need some time after the breakup, but once you're ready to date again give me a call!". </p>
 

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<p>No, I've never been a game-player. I figure if you show the guy who you really are, you can see if you're really a good match -- crazy concept, I know! <img alt="wink1.gif" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/wink1.gif"></p>
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<p>I agree that there can be a certain "mating dance" that isn't overtly manipulative, but I think the OP is talking more about people who subscribe to "The Rules" type of crap. I had never seen women like that up close until about 6 years ago when there was a sudden influx of them into my office -- it was really interesting from an anthropological standpoint. <img alt="lol.gif" src="http://files.mothering.com/images/smilies/lol.gif"> Some of them talked blatantly about dating guys they didn't like just to get a free dinner, and other stuff that I just couldn't wrap my brain around. I remember once they asked me early in the week if I wanted to join them for drinks on Friday. I reluctantly agreed, figuring I should give my new coworkers the benefit of the doubt and try to get to know them a little better. Mid-week, DH proposed to me, and when they heard about my engagement they <em>disinvited</em> me from going out for drinks, saying it was for single girls only. ('Cuz I was "single" when I had been living with my boyfriend for 4 years, apparently?) Yeah -- that's the type of girl I think about when I think about "game-players." </p>
 

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<p>When I was younger and was dating I played by "The Rules" and didn't have a whole lot of dates, more frustration than anything.  Now I've been married almost 13 years and become a lot more outspoken, I don't think I'd ever play those kinds of games again.  The potential to find what you are looking for is greater with honesty.  And if he's not secure enough in his masculinity, he's probably not the right guy anyway.</p>
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<p>However, my hubby and I do play...ahem..."games"...but we both know the other is just playing, it's a mutual thing.  That's what I thought this thread was about by the title.</p>
 

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<p>Dh and I have been married almost 11 years. We got engaged after knowing each other 3 months. You can take it from that that I am not a game player. I told dh how I felt about him pretty much as soon as I was sure. I didn't wait for him to contact me first or follow some weird rules. I brought up marriage first and he agreed to it- kind of a mutual proposal.</p>
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<p>I think you should be honest and yourself. If the person is scared away by you saying love or marriage then they aren't for you.</p>
 

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>MusicianDad</strong> <a href="/community/forum/thread/1281023/women-do-you-play-games-with-men#post_16064954"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/community/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>Well according to The Rules (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325&tag=motheringhud-20&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FRules-TM-Time-Tested-Secrets-Capturing%2Fdp%2F0446518131%2Fref%3Dsr_1_2%3Fie%3DUTF8%26qid%3D1290418249%26sr%3D8-2" rel="norewrite" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/Rules-TM-Time-Tested-Secrets-Capturing/dp/0446518131/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1290418249&sr=8-2</a>) that is what is supposed to happen.</p>
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<p>According to 195 people who reviewed The Rules, you (the OP) are right on the money saying its a load of crap.</p>
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<p>My feelings can be summed up here <a href="http://xkcd.com/800/" target="_blank">http://xkcd.com/800/</a></p>
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That Rules stuff is just cr*p. Yikes! Yep, what my friends were talking about was that sort of thing - the women being TOTALLY passive in a relationship. No initiative on the part of the woman, just passivity. No asking a guy out, or even suggesting it, no returning phone calls/email, guy has to call early in the week for a weekend date, and accepting an invite on Thursday would be seen as being desperate. Blech. Yuck!</p>
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<p>Limabean, I can imagine how that would have been interesting in an anthropological way!</p>
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