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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi!
I am new to Mothering and have been going back and forth with the whole vax thing, especially in light of the recent measles fiasco. Just to give you all a little idea of where I stand on the issue and then I will move onto my question...

There is so much pressure to vax no matter what.
I am not anti-vax, just pro-choice. I think if parents think vaxing is the right choice for their child/ren that is their decision to make, and vice versa. I do lean more towards the scientific than anecdotal for either side, but do not discount anecdotal completely.

I also do not completely buy the whole, "correlation is not causation." Correlation is not causation, but that does not make it irrelevant. A correlation can contribute to or exacerbate a condition, it can be a risk factor, without necessarily being the etiologic agent. I like to give the example of gum disease: while tartar and smoking do not cause it, bacteria does, they are correlated with the disease because they are risk factors for the disease. They contribute to the disease process and can exacerbate it.

I believe vaccines work for most people most of the time. I do not think their immunity is as good as naturally acquired immunity. I also do not think they are as "remarkably safe" as Paul Offit would love everyone to believe. I think vaccines are a band aid for infectious disease if you look at the whole picture long term. Yes, in the short term kids are no longer getting measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, diphtheria, polio, etc. in the numbers that they once were. However, even before vaccines were introduced, deaths from these VPD were dramatically and steadily declining as healthcare and quality of life improved. Severe complications were getting rarer. Instead, we now see measles and chicken pox in infants and adults when it is more dangerous, shingles are more common, other strains and pathogens move in to fill the niche of the strains that Prevnar and HiB prevent. And we won't even mention autism, autoimmune disease, allergies, asthma and everything else that is on the rise in this country. So there is a dark side to vaccines that has long term effects that people like Paul Offit don't want to discuss.

OK, so onto my question...so my almost 17 month old son has not been vaccinated at all, unless they sneaked in a Hepatitis B shot at the hospital without my knowledge. There is a strong family history of autoimmune disease in my husband's family. He has psoriasis, his sister has psoriasis, her 5 year-old is starting to show signs of psoriasis, my husband's father died from multiple sclerosis and grandfathers on both sides of his family also had psoriasis. In addition to that, DH had severe nut allergies and asthma as a child but outgrew them during puberty.

I myself, as well as many on my side of the family, have a lot of asthma, allergies and endometriosis. Now asthma and allergies are not autoimmune, but they are immune disorders. Rheumatologists are now starting to question if endometriosis is autoimmune or at least an immune disorder as it is frequently seen concomitantly with autoimmune diseases like lupus, Sjogren's, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, etc. as well as immune disorders like asthma and allergies.

So I feel like genetically my son is pretty much at high risk for developing an autoimmune disease, allergies or asthma. He already has a very faint patch of eczema he developed after his second cold at about a year old. Eczema is immune related. So, while in the back of my mind I contemplate other vaccine reactions, my main concern is triggering one of the above mentioned conditions which would affect him for the rest of his life. And if autoimmune, could require immuno-suppressing drugs to treat which would then make him more vulnerable to ALL infections (fungal, bacterial, viral) and CANCER while also possibly shortening his life expectancy or at the very least, decreasing his quality of life. Of course a naturally acquired infection could trigger an autoimmune disease, but I guess my point is, it it worth intentionally and superficially provoking his immune system repeatedly with multiple antigens and powerful adjuvants in order to prevent the rare possibility he might contract a VPD? I cannot find a ton of scientific literature to support the connection between vaccines and autoimmune diseases, allergies and asthma, but there is some. Questions are being raised in the scientific community, but much research still needs to be done.

Anyone here in the same boat? Did anyone speak to a pediatrician or immunologist or rheumatologist about it? What did they say? What did you decide? My pediatrician supports informed consent, but has never really seemed to care why I am reluctant to vax.

BTW, my son is low risk for contracting a VPD at this time. I still BF, he stays at home with me and is an only child. Hubby is a school teacher though, so he could always bring something home. He told me the other night around 29% of the kids at his charter school are under/unvaxed according to the principle and she feels no compulsion to pressure the parents to vax either.

TIA!
 

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Hi. The short answer is no. !! :smile:

Since my brother was diagnosed as vaccines being at least the final assault on his body that gave him an auto-immune disease...

We have various problems in my family history & I just wouldn't risk it.
That said- I also would want to make sure his immunity was strong by eating good food, eating kefir, taking some vitamin/minerals etc.
I do that for my kids.

I just would never want anyone on earth to experience what my brother went through & eventually died of at 21.

What I really wish is that they would come up with more tests to show us who is more likely to have reactions. I can't stand the stance that when hardcore vaxers say that when a reaction occurs - the child had an underlying cause or dismiss it outright.

If we just look at the first argument, why is there no tests or understanding what should make these poor kids susceptible? Even take allergies- what if they are allergic!!! They won't even test for that before injecting the kids & they could go into shock & die. (Such as one case of a mom here)
What would be the harm in testing for this BEFORE a vax is allowed as a safety precaution?
Why don't they study more how to protect these kids & what makes them susceptible?
What if it's taking certain antibiotics at the time, or eating this or this pain med Plus vax that seems to cause x,y,z.

This is why right now the only predictor you can try to guess on is family history. It should be considered greatly!!!

I hope all my rambling made sense.
Welcome!!! :grin:
 

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My family has a long list of auto immune disorders and allergies in addition to severe vaccine reactions. So that's why we haven't vax'd our child. At least if we or her changes our mind when she is older she will be less likely to have some of the issues. Although I experienced a very severe reaction in my twenties to hep b shot and Dtap I think it was. So I'm not sure she will ever be out of the woods.
 

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No. I believe the increase in the vaccination schedule has at least some impact on the huge upswing in auto-immune issues.

I have a positive ANA, which is a marker for many auto-immune disorders. I am not going to risk the possibility that my children have the same marker. Since ANA is quantified in terms of how weak/strong positive it is at any given period, I wouldn't even risk testing and then being confident/not as a result.

With a positive ANA, even a negative but family history, there is no telling what little it would take to trigger some sort of immune flare-up and disease process.
 
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I agree with you on correlation. It's interesting to note that there are NO causal studies on vaccines, on either side. All the evidence is corollary!

That being said, I would be very cautious when it comes to autoimmune/immune disorders and vaxing. There is not enough research into this area, IMO, to have any idea how the rate of reactions might differ or if vaxing impacts those disorders (or triggers them). If you decide to at some point, I would definitely wait until he is older and space any you choose to give out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hi. The short answer is no. !! :smile:

Since my brother was diagnosed as vaccines being at least the final assault on his body that gave him an auto-immune disease...

We have various problems in my family history & I just wouldn't risk it.
That said- I also would want to make sure his immunity was strong by eating good food, eating kefir, taking some vitamin/minerals etc.
I do that for my kids.

I just would never want anyone on earth to experience what my brother went through & eventually died of at 21.

What I really wish is that they would come up with more tests to show us who is more likely to have reactions. I can't stand the stance that when hardcore vaxers say that when a reaction occurs - the child had an underlying cause or dismiss it outright.

If we just look at the first argument, why is there no tests or understanding what should make these poor kids susceptible? Even take allergies- what if they are allergic!!! They won't even test for that before injecting the kids & they could go into shock & die. (Such as one case of a mom here)
What would be the harm in testing for this BEFORE a vax is allowed as a safety precaution?
Why don't they study more how to protect these kids & what makes them susceptible?
What if it's taking certain antibiotics at the time, or eating this or this pain med Plus vax that seems to cause x,y,z.

This is why right now the only predictor you can try to guess on is family history. It should be considered greatly!!!

I hope all my rambling made sense.
Welcome!!! :grin:
Thank you and so sorry about your brother. Yes I agree about the testing. That would be nice, unfortunately they have to accept there is a problem for a segment of the population before they will have the impetus to create such a test. And the program doesn't seem to want to acknowledge any flaws.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thank you to everyone who has given feedback so far. Does anyone know of any scientific literature on the subject other than the recent few out of rheumatologists in Israel concerning ASIA ( autoimmune syndrome induced by adjuvants) or one I recall that stated delayng DPaT by 6 months reduced risk of developing asthma by 50%? Or anything on allergies? With my husband's prior food allergies and my allergies to pollens, dust, mold, etc. and us all being vegan I would almost feel I need to expose my son to eggs, etc. prior to giving any vaccines containing animal products just to make sure he doesn't have an allergic reaction. I'd hate to find out post MMR that he's allergic to eggs! Again, haven't decided to vax or not but these are the things I worry about.
 

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Thank you to everyone who has given feedback so far. Does anyone know of any scientific literature on the subject other than the recent few out of rheumatologists in Israel concerning ASIA ( autoimmune syndrome induced by adjuvants) or one I recall that stated delayng DPaT by 6 months reduced risk of developing asthma by 50%? Or anything on allergies? With my husband's prior food allergies and my allergies to pollens, dust, mold, etc. and us all being vegan I would almost feel I need to expose my son to eggs, etc. prior to giving any vaccines containing animal products just to make sure he doesn't have an allergic reaction. I'd hate to find out post MMR that he's allergic to eggs! Again, haven't decided to vax or not but these are the things I worry about.
I can give you some links to a list of studies - but to prove absolutely would be hard!

How about this one: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896841199903463

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0753332204000642

There are hundreds of studies, some showing more & favor & some that say- maybe and some that seem to say prob not significant. It really is across the board right now.

I have to go dig up my link which talks about how immunologist really have no idea what really goes on- therefore when they make statements about what "absolutely" happens or not seems ridiculous.... Let me find it....
 

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Based on the info you've given, I would not vaccinate this child. If he were not still breastfeeding, I'm not sure what my recommendation would be. I think breastfeeding ,full term, is the best thing a mother can do to keep her child healthy, long term. If you haven't considered how long you will, I'd encourage you to do so.

I had a relatively normal family history of things here & there, but nothing major. All three of my children have allergies & as they age, it's apparent that allergies is only the tip of the iceberg for them, unfortunately. After I discovered my oldest had a dairy allergy at 18 months, I realized that I am not nor was I healthy before or after she & her brothers were born (I was born by c section, artificially fed from first feeding, had abx a bunch as a child, SAD, hormonal birth control & other stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting - I wasn't healthy but was by conventional standards). I wish I'd known to research this issue before my oldest was born.

With that said, I'm not sure what I would do if a child of mine were not full term breastfed. If for some reason breastfeeding had not happened w/ one of them (really, my 2nd & 3rd child since I didn't know about this w/ the first), I would have had to figure out what to do.

I think that "genetic," is actually the only way we've known to describe what is actually passing along an unhealthy gut/microbiome up until now. I read once somewhere that bacteria can even effect gene expression. Pretty fascinating stuff. I'm thinking you're vegetarian (don't remember if you said it). I'd encourage you to find out more about gut healing protocols/diets. If at his young age, he's already experiencing eczema, it'll be easier to start healing his gut now than waiting until he's older.

Best wishes,
Sus
 

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My family stopped vaccinating in the 1920s after a death and a case of anaphylactic shock.

There have been some of us since then who were frightened. bullied and harassed into vaccinating. Of those, a niece has autism and juvenile arthritis, a nephew has MS, another three nephews have ADHD, one has asthma, and another niece had the ordinary sore leg, eczema, and seizures that she has overcome. They are all vaccinated. Some of them were breastfed.

Of the never vaccinated ones, there are no allergies, no ADHD, no autism, no juvenile arthritis, no seizures, no eczema; they are all at ages where in these conditions would have presented themselves. They were all breastfed.
 
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the unknown is a lot of reason I stopped vaxxing my ds and have only given dd one dtap. I have unknown paternal origins as well as my kiddos father immigrating from a country that has little to no history of vaccination. So how do we know what my childrens history is in regards to health when essentially only 25% of vaccination throughout decades is available. That being said my maternal line has little to no auto immune issues. There are no cases of autism at all. There are some family members with eczema but mostly started in peoples 40's. I have some family history of thyroid issues and low and behold I am currently developing thyroid issues which makes my decision to stop vaccinations a lot more validating. In addition I suffered a seizure of unknown origins at 16 and I suspect my ds did shortly after birth as well. He was vaccinated until 1 year old until I decided to discontinue them. Dd received a dtap at 1 year and that is all. Ds has had seasonal allergies since he was 3 and they get pretty bad where he needs nasal steriods and I also think he has lactose intolerlance like his father. So far dd hasn't shown any signs of allergies as of yet.
 

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I didn't mention in my previous post, but my husband and I don't vaccinate our two kids due to the fact that my husband suffers from Multiple Sclerosis.

Under the contraindications of the MMR it does state that a child with a family history of immune disorders should not receive the MMR until their immune health can be determined. I'm not sure how one can decide on their immune health in a situation like this, but regardless we're not taking the risk.
 

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Normally they can test this through a simple blood work. Honestly everyone should be tested and really know the causes of what can happen so they can weigh the options.

Should you vaccinate? I think you should read about mutating viruses and start there. There was an article released not to long ago that a child whom was vaccinated and on schedule ended up with measles. The mother asked her doctor why and the doctor pulled some tests. They found out the measles was a different strain, totally different than the inculcation she was given. This child got better and is a happy little girl.

Something more interesting...

The west nile virus destroyed the bird population, yet recent studies show that the population came back much stronger and fully immune to west nile. We have a lot of questions, but really the answer is in front of us.
 

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Normally they can test this through a simple blood work. Honestly everyone should be tested and really know the causes of what can happen so they can weigh the options.

Should you vaccinate? I think you should read about mutating viruses and start there. There was an article released not to long ago that a child whom was vaccinated and on schedule ended up with measles. The mother asked her doctor why and the doctor pulled some tests. They found out the measles was a different strain, totally different than the inculcation she was given. This child got better and is a happy little girl.

Something more interesting...

The west nile virus destroyed the bird population, yet recent studies show that the population came back much stronger and fully immune to west nile. We have a lot of questions, but really the answer is in front of us.
There are people who do this, but since there is NO research on genetic mutations and such convernimg vaccines what you'll get from the medical establishment is "we don't know for sure, but it seems like it should be safe, so do it anyways."
 

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There are people who do this, but since there is NO research on genetic mutations and such convernimg vaccines what you'll get from the medical establishment is "we don't know for sure, but it seems like it should be safe, so do it anyways."
=======
I took blood from a test subject(mouse) this year whom gets the Influenza shot each year. I did most of the lab work and what I found was a live culture of Influenza attached to dead strains normally found in inoculations. Two strains from previous years that were shipped weaken some how are in full bloom. The host looked good, no fever, motor skills were great. What is concerning is the antibodies were not active(low). What is more alarming is how this virus of a complete difference attaches to cells of its like kind. I ran it past a view colleagues whom suggested a default. I tested this on a new subject, the immune systems responded. The levels of proteins and antibodies were very high and aggressive.

========

Recently this year the CDC said the influenza vaccine is considered ineffective.

I do a lot or research myself, the above was a question that was bounced around. I don't know what to make of it, doesn't look good though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thank you again to everyone who has posted their input. To clarify a few things in regards to some of the post responses I read: yes I do still breastfeed my son at 17 months. I am hoping to nurse until he is at least 2 years old, or even longer, but am allowing him to decide how long he wants to nurse. He was exclusively nursed for the first 6 months and slowly transitioned to solids. He is vegan, as is my husband and I. We don't eat any animal products (meat, dairy, eggs, gelatin.) I was a lacto-ovo vegetarian during my pregnancy and the first 10 months post partum. Son did show signs of dairy sensitivity like rectal bleeding from cow's milk in formula he had at the hospital (long story there) and always had a red ring around his anus which went away once I gave up dairy, apparently even the small amount that was getting in my breast milk was enough to cause a reaction.

I gave him probiotics his first year of life and I took them too since I had IV antibiotics in the hospital for group B strep during labor and delivery. I would give him non dairy yogurt if I could find one without sugar in it. I tried making my own breast milk yogurt but that didn't work too well.

My son is incredibly healthy in everyway other than the faintest patch of eczema under his right knee and a very small patch on his lower back. They don't bother him at all and I only know they are there because the skin is lighter in color, but not dry or scaly. He was over 10 pounds when born and has always been in the 95th percentile for height and weight. At 17 months he is wearing 2 T clothing. He has had 5 colds so far in 17 months with most resolving after a day or two. Only has had a fever once that lasted a day and never went over 101 and I did not treat the fever with antipyretics but let it run it's course.

In addition to asthma, allergies and autoimmune disease, my husband was diagnosed with thrombocytopenia in his early twenties while still living in Greece. They said it was from low B-12 so he started supplementing but never followed up to see if the condition ever went away. This is a known adverse reaction to MMR. I wonder what the probability is that my son would develop this condition post MMR? There are just so many variables! I don't want my son catching a VPD and suffering a severe complication or dying but I am afraid of triggering an autoimmune disease too or him having an allergic reaction to an ingredient. I feel screwed either way! Arrggh! :irked
 
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