[seemfrog]

oh, I'm so annoyed right now...

DH came in the room while I was giving my boys "10 sips" before bed (he is putting them down tonight - we have just started taking turns, one puts them down for the night, the other attends to any night needs and generally ends up staying with them at some point in the early morning hrs)

ds2 didn't want to stop nursing after his "10 sips" were up, honestly it has been getting to me that he does this a lot, I am really ready for the nursing to be over soon, and when I set a limit, or let them set the limit one or both will not want to stop (EVER). So I am calmly trying to talk with him about it, give a few more seconds, bring it up, ask when he will be finished, etc and DH gets upset and says "You told him NO, so don't let him!" and I fire back at him... DH is really really great with the kids, he really tries and has read books with me, follows my examples, we discuss lots of techniques, etc, he stays at home with them 4 days, me 3, etc BUT he resorts to authoritarian measures whenever he gets irritated (I do when I get REALLY irritated, but his fuse tends to be shorter).

Anyway, it made me think of this matter in general, it seems like whenever he's had a hard day he feels this way, but what do you all think? He will suddenly get fed up and say "why are we letting them do whatever they want? it just seems like we keep giving in!" I of course think we are giving them choices, letting them tell us when they have strong emotions about wanting to do something, etc, this extends to all areas of life. As for nursing, well, I suddenly feel like I'm not being supported, like he doesn't understand the relationship at all if he feels like its the same as "stop throwing your toys" or "that's enough grapes"

guess this is partly a VENT, but also, just wanting to hear if there are any thoughts on these matters!

thanks.

 

[Kira's mom]

I just want to say hooray for nursing twins for 3 yrs. That is amazing. I nursed on demand, but I only had one. i don't think his frustration has anything to do with you at all. If you can remember that it may help. When nursing it was very hard for me to set limits. I did encourage dd to 'sleep all night and we'll drink milk in the morning' or 'For me to be a good mommy I need to sleep all night'. I personally think it's great that you talk to them about this. I don't know if anyone who hasn't been there could truly understand!! Keep up the good work. You are my hero!!

 

[Dandelionkid]

My DH is much the same way with discipline, so are many of my friends husbands. I tend to work out an amicable solution for all. My DH tends to get frustrated easier and "lay down the law"- no room for negotiation. I really, really need to work on keeping my mouth shut when he does this and the kids are around. I think "saving" them from their dad causes more damage than not having a completely "gentle" upbringing. I don't know if this is healthy or not but we have an unspoken rule that whoever starts the discipline or boundary setting, finishes it. I try not to interfere with his discipline, except to validate kids feelings when they inevitably cry to me, and I expect the same from DH- not to get heavy-handed (don't mean hitting) when I am trying to work out the issue with discussion etc.

That being said- I have been pretty irritated in the past about almost the same issue with nursing. I figure they are MY breasts- I will decide how and when to use them

 

[hollydlr]

I am by no means an expert on this but have been struggling with the "no means no" issue as well. I am wondering if something that might work better instead of saying "only 10 sips" and then not making them stop, would be to just talk to them about nursing less, gently suggesting but not putting a specific limit on it. I am wondering if the kids see it as a competition between you and them, the longer they keep nursing after you say done, the more they win the little tug-o-war game? Also if you don't set a specific limit, your DH would not see it as "giving in"? If you are going to take it away anyway, don't negotiate it, just do it, and if not, what's the sense in setting the uninforced limit?

Am I totally off the mark here? Sorry if I am, I'm tired and I've already rewritten this post a few times trying to figure out how to say what I mean clearly... Good luck mama and I hope you feel better after venting at least!

As for my struggles with the issue, I am trying to discern what approach is more "gentle," what the psychological effects of different approaches to saying no and setting limits have on my kid and our relationship... Maybe someone out there can sum it up easily?

 

[rhiandmoi]

I am going to come from a different perspective on this. Once you set a limit, if you allow what you've said you don't allow you are sending a mixed message. You are basically telling your boys that no does not mean no and that they can use someone else's body after that person has set limits if they are insistent enough. If you don't want to have limits on nursing that is fine, but if you set a limit it should be a limit that you are willing to enforce. I think the relationship is important to maintain, and that you are probably not ready for set limits on nursing, or maybe not on bedtime nursing.

 

[dynamicdoula]

Maybe I don't understand (and I grant, that's possibly the case

) but I don't understand why expressing a boundary about your body and then sticking to it is authoritarian. I think that's what I hear your husband saying. You're negotiating with your child after you've set a boundary, which just blurs the lines and makes the boundary almost impossible to enforce. I can imagine doing what you describe but I can't imagine it's helpful to either one of you- he gets to nurse under pressure and with a feeling of guilt, and you are nursing when you don't want to be.

What happens if you stick to your word? Is it possible that is what your husband is asking? Clue me in if I have this totally wrong...

 

[mamaUK]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi I am going to come from a different perspective on this. Once you set a limit, if you allow what you've said you don't allow you are sending a mixed message. You are basically telling your boys that no does not mean no and that they can use someone else's body after that person has set limits if they are insistent enough. If you don't want to have limits on nursing that is fine, but if you set a limit it should be a limit that you are willing to enforce. I think the relationship is important to maintain, and that you are probably not ready for set limits on nursing, or maybe not on bedtime nursing.

I totally agree with this, I am a firm believer in 'say what you mean, mean what you say' and if you are not prepared to follow through on the limits you have set don't set them in the first place. Otherwise it could spread to other areas of your life and they will think 'mommy doesn't mean what she say, so if i keep on pushing for what i want, i will get it'. If parents set boundaries which they don't keep to themselves i think it can be very confusing for children and make them feel more insecure. I agree with poster quoted that you inside your heart probably aren't ready to limit nursing at bedtime quite yet. I bet they love this special time with you

 

[mamaduck]

I think it makes it harder for the child if you set limits and then don't follow through. I think it can create a nervous sort of tension for the child to hear about and talk about limits, to get internally charged up and ready, and then have the stopping point be unclear. It means that he is never sure about what will happen with nursing, and over time I think you end up with more fussing, more clinging, and more anxiety over the whole issue. So I agree that if you say "10 sips," then its important to be prepared to follow through. OTOH, you don't have to set that limit in the first place if you don't want to handle it that way.

As far as your DH, I think the answer is to institute more structure *before* he starts feeling grouchy or having a bad day. Planning and structure help keep parents from being so reactive. But yes, I can see that the feelings of being swamped and things feeling out of control probably feel more intense and more real at the end of a hard day. I get those feelings too, and its probably natural and unavoidable to some extent. Things are never 100% "under control" with small children, are they?

 

[GuildJenn]

I agree that if you set a limit, it's good to stick to it. The choice comes at the start, not at the end.

That said, I occasionally change my mind if I've set some really dumb limit (as I do a few times a week) but I always say:

... I am changing my mind (once) or
... I am NOT changing my mind (final no)

so there's at least a clear signal.

 

[sapphire_chan]

As GuildJenn says, the choice about limits comes at the start not the end. And you can also do things to help with the approach to the limit. Like counting down the sips, talking about something good that happpens next "when you've had 10 sips daddy'll read you a story", etc, etc.

 

[bscal]

I agree that your DH is probably looking at it from the perspective of trying to help you to set limits. If there is any negotiation it should be before the nursing sessions starts. For example, if you tell your son that he can have 10 sips before bed and he asks for 12 instead and you agree to that negotiation. I negotiate terms with my oldest DD quite often... normally about bedtime. I tell her 10 minutes until lights out, she requests 15 minutes instead so she can finish writing a story in her journal or looking at a book and I agree to her "terms" as long as she asks nicely. I would not "give in" if she just didn't turn her lights off after 10 minutes because she's the type of child to push things very far and we'd end up dealing with this until midnight. She has behavioral issues if she does not get an appropriate amount of sleep and has major problems turning her brain off at night... so I have to enforce bedtime. So, IMO, letting your child negotiate with you BEFORE he starts nursing would be okay. Just letting him continue to nurse after you've told him to stop does not sit well with me.

Also, I don't like basically teaching your child that he can do whatever he wants with YOUR body. I think teaching children at a young age that NO means NO is important. If you are not comfortable continuing a nursing session past 10 sips or so then he needs to learn to respect that. And I think he's old enough at 3 to start learning about personal space. I know my middle child is 3 and I am teaching her to respect other people's bodies. (Most particularly not to touch little brother's winkie!)

HTH,
Beth

 

[Kay11]

I think that you should try to negotiate before starting nursing rather than during when DS2 wants to carry on and you're feeling like you've had enough. I think it's good to help your children see that you have to compromise sometimes, but that it's good for them to do that too. And I really don't think 3 is too young for that.

On the no means no issue in general, even if I've said it over something that I realise is pretty stupid afterwards, I stick to it. I want my kids to know that I mean what I say and that if I tell them something it's because it's true. I believe consistency and trust are really important, and sticking to my word comes under that.

 

[AbbieB]

I think nursing is such a unique thing. If you have not nursed your own child for 3 years you might not fully understand the complexity of the relationship. I'm not trying to be negative and put down Mommas that don't nurse or whose children weaned at a younger age here. I'm just saying that unless you have experienced it you just might not get it.

Your child wanting more "sips" is not the same as wanting more candy, or not wanting to take a bath. There is a very real emotional component that needs to be respected.

I am currently nursing my 5 year old (down to just 1 time in the morning...I'm so ready to stop!) and her little brother. My DD has a very strong attachment to nursing. She really needs the closeness, the one on one time, the connection, and I believe the hormones (or what ever it is) that the brain produces when young children nurse. I can meet most of her needs other ways but sometimes she needs the whole package. She will try all kinds of tricks to get more nursing time. But I can tell the difference between her just pushing for more and times when she really NEEDS to nurse. So when she has had a horribly rough day and just can't cope I will let her nurse. When she is sick, we nurse.

Giving in to your child's need to nurse (or even your child's need to be parented to sleep in other ways) does not make you a bad parent. It makes you a good parent that is responding to your child's very real needs.

It's also sooooo hard and lonely to be in a position where you would like to stop nursing (or limit it) but your child is not quite there and the people around you that were supportive suddenly start being critical. I can't imagine how I would feel if my partner was the one being critical. (My mother's wise cracks are hard enough to take!)

Hugs to you momma. Follow your heart on this and do what is best for you and your kids. You will never regret it. Tell your husband to but out. Nursing is between you and your kids. (Then come vent in the extended nursing forum!)

I also wanted to say that the idea that once you start weaning and limit setting you can't go backward is BS! Children often grow in a few steps forward then a step back kind of way.

 

[One_Girl]

It may be that you are very tense and not acting like yourself because you are ready to be done nursing and your dh reaction came from wanting you to have less tension in your life. When I was really ready for my dd to wean I was very tense and my relationship with dd and everyone else went downhill a lot but I wasn't able to see that it had until she weaned. My family was very unsupportive of me continuing to nurse but it was because they saw that it was no longer a good thing for me and dd. I think you should talk to your dh about this and see if that is part of what is going on.

 

[sapphire_chan]

Something else to consider is maybe breaking the before bed nursing into two sessions. Like, brush your teeth or something halfway through. Sometimes, just the fact that you get to do something again makes it feel like you're doing it for longer.

 

[sapphire_chan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kay11 I think that you should try to negotiate before starting nursing rather than during when DS2 wants to carry on and you're feeling like you've had enough. I think it's good to help your children see that you have to compromise sometimes, but that it's good for them to do that too. And I really don't think 3 is too young for that. On the no means no issue in general, even if I've said it over something that I realise is pretty stupid afterwards, I stick to it. I want my kids to know that I mean what I say and that if I tell them something it's because it's true. I believe consistency and trust are really important, and sticking to my word comes under that.

As long as you're also consistent when you're stupid about saying "yes."

 

[daytripper75]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi I am going to come from a different perspective on this. Once you set a limit, if you allow what you've said you don't allow you are sending a mixed message. You are basically telling your boys that no does not mean no and that they can use someone else's body after that person has set limits if they are insistent enough. If you don't want to have limits on nursing that is fine, but if you set a limit it should be a limit that you are willing to enforce. I think the relationship is important to maintain, and that you are probably not ready for set limits on nursing, or maybe not on bedtime nursing.

:

I agree that only setting limits when you plan to enforce them is very important. I would tend to agree that maybe your husband is trying to protect you in his own way.

 

[MissSJ]

OP, it is great that you have nursed your twins for so long!

It is strange to be one of the few that doesn't agree with the bulk of the other responders to a thread here at MDC. I don't see anything wrong with telling a child no or setting a boundary and then changing your mind. Now that I've typed that I guess it depends on the scenario. I can't speak to your particular situation (the PPs have brought up good points) since I have not gone through the weaning/limited BF process yet but we've had plenty of times where I have said no to something then realized that the request wasn't a big deal and I should have said yes. Instead of continuing with my no just because I said no in the first place I explain to my children that I have thought about xyz, changed my mind and yes they can _____. IMO there is nothing wrong with showing children that you can reflect on something and change your mind. I feel it shows them you are flexible, that sometimes we make rash decisions and that it is ok to change your mind about things. Having said that, I do not change my mind about things just because my children are whining, crying or asking me the same thing over and over and over. I have not found that changing my mind about "nos" leads to that type of behavior in my children when my no does not change to a yes.

Once again, I want to say I am just speaking about changing your mind about saying no in general not about the OPs BF scenario she mentioned.

OP, hope you and your dh can find a way to resolve this.

SJ

 

[AngelBee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi I am going to come from a different perspective on this. Once you set a limit, if you allow what you've said you don't allow you are sending a mixed message. You are basically telling your boys that no does not mean no and that they can use someone else's body after that person has set limits if they are insistent enough. If you don't want to have limits on nursing that is fine, but if you set a limit it should be a limit that you are willing to enforce. I think the relationship is important to maintain, and that you are probably not ready for set limits on nursing, or maybe not on bedtime nursing.

Say what you mean and mean what you say

Congrats on your nursing two littles that long

:

 

[hollycat]

of course there is a unique emotional/security component to nursing but there is also a unique emotional/security component to letting your kids know they can really trust you and feel safe in your limits and guidance. when you waffle, they can feel really insecure too, which can result in more need for more breast and a circle.

good answers.