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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
You might be interested in perusing this information:<br><br>
Rudolph Virchow, a great German scientist, repudiated the germ theory of disease. He said that disease brought on germs rather than the germs caused disease.<br><br>
Claude Bernard, Bechamp and Tissot-great French scientists-all disproved the germ theory of disease. ...<br><br>
Sanitation is the only factor that has reduced the spread of the old-time scourges.<br><br>
If the germ theory were founded on facts, there would be no living being to read what is herein written, for germs are ubiquitous-they exist everywhere.<br><br>
In many diseases supposedly caused by a specific germ, that germ is not present.<br><br>
Contrariwise, specific germs said to cause a specific disease are present in huge proportions without the specific disease manifesting itself.<br><br>
Dr. Virginia Vetrano writes, "Just remember that there are no contagious diseases, just contagious habits which lower your vitality. There have been many people who have had diphtheria and yet no germ could be found. The same can be said of tuberculosis and other diseases. This is why the virus had to be discovered-to save the germ theory. Now we have virus infections instead of germ infections because pathologists could not find a germ for all the diseases of mankind. If a germ does not cause disease, what does? Soon everyone will learn that it is the individual's way of life that produces disease and not the saprophytes of earth, which are actually beneficial to us. Without them we would all succumb. They do so many jobs for us that it would take volumes to tell you about them. In fact without bacterial life, all animal and plant life would soon wither and die. On second thought, without bacteria we can't even wither."<br><br>
Dr. Vetrano adds, "A truly healthy child can sleep with a person 'infected' with scarlet fever, mumps, measles or some of the other virulent so-called infections diseases, night after night, and still not develop the disease. But overfeed that same child and he will now develop a so-called infectious disease. This disease will not be due to germs, but due to putrefactive toxins absorbed from the digestive tract in an enervated and toxemic individual."<br><br>
"Hygienists do not use the term infection to mean 'invasion' of the organism by pathogenic micro-organisms, but recognize the element of poisoning in all so-called 'infections.' Tilden said that all infections stem from one source-protein decomposition. The term septic infection covers the whole field of infection and means protein decomposition. Pioneer (Natural) Hygienists said specific infections have no place in biological abnormalities or disease and any infection is only septic infection arising from absorbed protein putrefactive toxins from the digestive tract. Dr. Shelton states that 'sepsis is the only infecting agent in all the so-called specific diseases.'"<br><br><a href="http://poisonevercure.150m.com/antibody_theory.htm" target="_blank"><b>The Antibody Theory and more...</b></a>
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
No problem!<br><br><br>
We humans do not know what makes us sick. No one knows. We have most of those - what we consider pathogenic bacteria, viruses, etc.- in our healthy bodies with us much of the time.<br><br>
But for sure in times of war and famine and stress people get sick. That's when we see all diseases come back. Do the germs that play such an important role in the body suddenly attack us? It seem unrealistic. Unnatural for sure.<br><br>
Well, maybe the link will help you to understand the theory that I have come to see as much more plausible.<br><br>
Of course it does not explain why your kids got the CP.<br><br>
Perhaps the time was right?<br><br>
Mother Nature knows best, I am convinced of that.
 

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Gitti--does this mean that it would be sort of pointless to go to a CP party if you wanted your child to get CP? I am still trying to get my head around why a CP party would work (why those attending would get CP) if germs weren't somehow involved. TIA! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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I've heard that theory phrased in simpler terms:<br><br>
"Germs cause disease the way flies cause garbage cans."<br><br>
My personal theory is that germ theory and hygeine theory both work on some level. Nasty viruses/bacteria/fungi won't infect a healthy person because they have a strong immune system and lots of "good germs" to crowd out the "bad germs." However, you still need the "bad germs" for certain diseases. And our bodies have 2 kinds of immune cells- the "generic" kind that fluctuate in quantity and strength based on your overall health, and the "specific" kind that get made when you get a specific illness (such as CP.) Of course overall health plays a part in how well your body will respond to "specific bad germs" but the specific antibodies are an extra tool your body has to protect itself from specific infections.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">--does this mean that it would be sort of pointless to go to a CP party if you wanted your child to get CP? I am still trying to get my head around why a CP party would work (why those attending would get CP) if germs weren't somehow involved. TIA!</td>
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I have been reading different theories but remember each one is exactly that "a theory" including allopathic medicine with it's "germ causes disease" believe.<br><br>
Yes, some kids go to a CP party and sure enough they get the CP. But how often have we read that someone is trying to have their child get the CP at a party and the d-child just won't come down with the disease (or symptoms). Why not? He sucked on the lollipop, he swallowed the spit, and yet, no reaction.<br><br>
Doesn’t the germ in the spit cause the CP? If so, every child that comes in contact with that spit gets the germ and should get the symptoms.<br><br>
So it must take something in addition to the germ. I do not know what. But I am convinced it is not the germ per se that causes the disease.<br><br>
(per se = in and of itself)<br><br>
This is an interesting thread to me. Anyone can post what they find out. Please! I know we'll never solve the puzzle, but perhaps... who knows, certainly immunologists don't know any better than we.<br><br>
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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Ruthla</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I've heard that theory phrased in simpler terms:<br>
"Germs cause disease the way flies cause garbage cans."</div>
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Yes, or Germs cause disease the way swamps cause mosquitoes or vise-versa.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">My personal theory is that germ theory and hygeine theory both work on some level.<br>
Nasty viruses/bacteria/fungi won't infect a healthy person because they have a strong immune system and lots of "good germs" to crowd out the "bad germs."</td>
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I used to think that. But it makes no sense either. Please don't take that personal. You see, we carry "bad germs" in our bodies along with "good germs" and we actually do not know the difference. For instance diphtheria, pertussis, polio, and other pathogenic germs are found in perfectly healthy people. They have identified over 90 germs in a healthy throat.<br>
Which one is good and which is bad?<br>
That's actually how they found the hib during severe flu and thought it was the caused of some problems. They now know for a fact that hib is only a regular guy in the throat and to eliminate it creates an imbalance...<br><br><br>
No, I don't buy the "good" vs. "bad" germ theory any longer.<br><br>
I am not even sure that it is the germ that causes the disease. Because in any other setting, other than in the body, the germ only aids nature, never devastates.<br><br>
Maybe the germ is there to assist the body in getting rid of the disease and we think it is there to cause disease? Because germs have exactly that function when we are healthy, to sort of clean up in the body. Without them we could not live.<br><br>
What makes us sick? Gosh, we'll ponder that forever.<br><br>
That's why I have come to the conclusion to find out what keeps us healthy and concentrate on only that. What makes us healthy? That’s why I say no war, no fear....peace....<br><br>
But, I must admit, I still keep trying to expose my grandson to the CP. Maybe some day his body is ready to show symptoms, if not, well...I believe by now he is immune already anyway.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>Gitti</strong></div>
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So it must take something in addition to the germ. I do not know what. But I am convinced it is not the germ per se that causes the disease.<br><br>
(per se = in and of itself)<br><br>
This is an interesting thread to me. Anyone can post what they find out. Please! I know we'll never solve the puzzle, but perhaps... who knows, certainly immunologists don't know any better than we.<br><br>
________<br><br></div>
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Gitti, I might be able to offer you another piece for the puzzle, but I can't post it here for copyright reasons. I'm PM'ing you now!
 

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I would just poke in here IMHO what we call diseases are actually symptoms.<br>
That is why it is expressed differently in each person. While one person's immune system may encounter a germ/bacteria/virus and eliminate it without symptoms, another person's body may NEED to have the symtoms to eliminate the baddie. KWIM/<br><br>
We all know our symptoms serve a purpose - maybe some peoples systems are soooo in order all thye bad stuff is eliminated w/o needing to use symptoms as a crutch.<br><br>
And while some people display symtoms (get sick) all the time and would probably be considered to have a poor immune system or even immune deficiency - maybe others have a system that goes into overdrive - with the immune system not knowing where to stop - perhaps attacking everything - like in ms, or in my son's case autism.<br><br>
Just my .02 on this really interesting discussion!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">..While one person's immune system may encounter a germ/bacteria/virus and eliminate it without symptoms, another person's body may NEED to have the symtoms to eliminate the baddie.</td>
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Does the immune system eliminate anything?<br>
Do germs etc. have to be eliminated? We just don't know.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">We all know our symptoms serve a purpose - maybe some peoples systems are soooo in order all thye bad stuff is eliminated w/o needing to use symptoms as a crutch.</td>
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Yes, I can go along with that. Because in some people there are no symptoms and yet they have immunity.<br><br>
Unless they have immunity already and that's why they had no symptoms?<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">- maybe others have a system that goes into overdrive - with the immune system not knowing where to stop - perhaps attacking everything - like in ms, or in my son's case autism.</td>
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No, I do not think that the body would ever attack itself under normal circumstances. That would be too much against nature.<br>
Something has to totally corrupt the immune system in order for the body to turn on itself.<br>
Because autoimmune disorders would have never survived over the millions of years in humans.<br><br>
Therefore it must actually be a fairly new disorder. I believe something has to trigger it. Some interference from somewhere.<br>
In your son's case it was probably vaccines, or not?<br><br>
Also severe stress can do it.<br><br>
For instance, after a violent accident a person can become diabetic (type 1), an autoimmune disorder.
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Does the immune system eliminate anything?</td>
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<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/headscratch.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="headscratch"> Ummm, what?<br><br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Do germs etc. have to be eliminated? We just don't know.</td>
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What do you mean by this exactly? Do you mean does the immune system need to eliminate things from the body or do you mean do we need to eliminate them from our environments?<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">I would just poke in here IMHO what we call diseases are actually symptoms. That is why it is expressed differently in each person. While one person's immune system may encounter a germ/bacteria/virus and eliminate it without symptoms, another person's body may NEED to have the symtoms to eliminate the baddie. KWIM/<br><br>
We all know our symptoms serve a purpose - maybe some peoples systems are soooo in order all thye bad stuff is eliminated w/o needing to use symptoms as a crutch.<br><br>
And while some people display symtoms (get sick) all the time and would probably be considered to have a poor immune system or even immune deficiency - maybe others have a system that goes into overdrive - with the immune system not knowing where to stop - perhaps attacking everything - like in ms, or in my son's case autism.</td>
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I view the set of symptoms as indicators of how the immune system is/is not working. Take fever for example: 2 of my 3 kids are fever runners -- any time they get sick, they run 103-105 fever for about 3 days & then they're pretty much well. My 3rd child usually gets sick less frequently than the other 2 but when he does, he doesn't run much fever & is sick for more days. Take rashes as another example: I understand the theory some people hold that rashes are the skin's way of eliminating toxins. I personally can't get into that. If you're exposed to varicella & your immune system takes care of it briskly you don't ever develop chicken pox but you do have immunity. You develop the classic rash because of the progression of what the virus does inside the body if it isn't kept in check by the immune system. Just like shingles -- you develop the symptoms because of what uncontrolled virus does to your body.<br><br>
Now, I do believe that germ exposure is not nearly as important as maintaining health. However, it is just very difficult to live in today's world without ever experiencing things that stress the body and leave us a little more susceptible to illness. Just like the discussion we had not long ago where someone asked about using hand sanitizers during vacation/travel -- during normal, low stress conditions for a healthy person I'd say it wasn't necessary. But keeping in mind how stressful travel can be for a child, I say you do have to be more diligent in preventing certain exposures. Consider that person who was in a car accident & maybe is in ICU -- do we need to wash our hands before we go touching their ventilator tubes? Most definitely. In their normal pre-accident life would we need to wash our hands before we touch their neck? Probably not. So while I agree that maintaining the "terrain" is of utmost importance, I don't believe you can always consider germ exposure irrelevant.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">.. So while I agree that maintaining the "terrain" is of utmost importance, I don't believe you can always consider germ exposure irrelevant.</td>
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That is true, if you believe that germs cause disease in the body. That germs are the culpirt.<br><br>
There is a theory though that the germ does not cause disease in the body.<br><br>
We have no proof that it does. Just because it is found at the site of infection etc. is no reason.<br><br>
Sort of like firemen are always found at fires. Are they the cause?<br><br>
Germs may have a completely different function than we believe.<br>
We know for sure they are the 'janitors' of the healthy body. So when do they suddenly start to turn on us and why? Do they have a 'split' personality?<br><br>
No one knows for sure.<br><br>
The "germs cause disease" is a 200 yr. old theory. But it has come under scrutiny by the scientific community from the moment it was accepted as truth.<br><br>
Many scientists say it is simply wrong.<br><br>
I don't know of course, but I am beginning to believe that germs may not be the culprit. At least not without other factors being involved.<br><br>
On the other hand, the guy who advocated washing hands after working in the morgue and before delivering the next baby was on to something. He saved hundreds of mothers from child bed fever. (Although his friendly colleagues chastised him and basically made him out to be a kook.)<br><br>
So I am thinking:<br><br>
Perhaps we each cultivate our own individual germs (aura)? Maybe the germs get sort of fine tune to each individual body that they take care of? And germs from other bodies need time to acclimate....???? And with some it is done quickly but there are others that....?????????
 

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I just have to disagree with the notion that germs never play a role in disease processes. Of course they are not the sole factor, host factors are most certainly involved. But there is indeed evidence that they can & do play a role in disease processes under the right circumstances, which seems to me to be exactly what Ms Vetrano ( I'm not sure whether to call her "Dr." or not since her address is in Texas but she holds neither a medical nor a chiropractic license in that state) and Virchow were saying.<br><br>
Sometimes whether or not a germ causes infection is dependent on location. One example might be hib -- hanging out in the throat it's not such a problem, but if something happens to allow it access to a place it shouldn't be... say the central nervous system... then it's a problem. In this case, the germ isn't the problem itself, the host factors are because they are what allowed the microbe to be where it shouldn't.<br><br>
Take children with SCID as another example. These children don't have problems if they aren't exposed to germs. So the germs do play a role in that child's disease process but it's the host's immune incompetence that allows it to happen. Does B pertussis play a role in whooping cough? *If* it is allowed to colonize the ciliated cells in the respiratory tract, yes it can. Take post-op wounds -- if they get infected, they don't heal. But if you kill those "firefighter" germs as you say (either with the immune system or medication or wound care), the wound heals. Firefighters extinguish fires, Pseudomonas in a post-op wound doesn't benefit the individual, it's just taking advantage of a nice new home. Measles or hib or whatever in the brain doesn't benefit the individual. As you also mention, puerperal fever above.
 

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Interesting thread! I wanted to chime in, because I was a clinical microbiologist before I had my first baby, so I've had my hands on a few microbes<img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1">.<br><br>
The thing about germs causing disease: yes, they sure can- but usually only if they are the dominating microbe. If someone gets a yeast infection, swab the vagina and i guarantee you a culture will grow a predominance of yeast,a nd very little other normal flora. Yeast are normally in the vaginal tract, but in very small amounts compared to the normal bacterial flora, but it only becomes a problem when there is an imbalance-- so germs cause disease when there is some imbalance. We cultured the microbes in the lab to confirm, and to find the appropriate treatments- the right antibiotics,a nd to check for antibiotic resistance- which we saw alot of. So when we got a specimen from an abcess- you can be sure it grew a predominance of something. We got alot of routine cultures as well, from peple who weren't sick, and in those, we just saw lots of mixed normal flora.<br><br>
Many people actually carry Strep pyogenes, the microbe responsible for most cases of strep throat, in their respiratory tract, but are asymptomatic-again, this microbe only causes a problem when there's an imbalance. The immune system and the bacterias themselves keep everything in check. When one factor is amiss, that's when disease happens.<br><br>
Why do some people get sick and others don't? I believe one answer is in our DNA. I saw a really interesting documentary on PBS a while back (sorry, I can't find a link right now!) about how in the days of the Black Plague, many people got sick and died- but some people got sick and recovered, but then there were the few that never got sick despite multiple exposures--- fast forward to today, there are the few people who are exposed to HIV (I know there is controversy over AIDS on this board, but bear with me) who never contract it-- studies have been done, and some believe there is a genetic mutation- some people have a gene that pervents the virus from tapping into their cells and using them for replication, which is how the virus works and destroys- uses your own cells to replicate while destroying it. Back to the plague, it's believed that those few who got sick and recovered had one copy of the rogue protective gene, and those very rare individuals who never contracted it after repeated exposure had two copies of the gene. The are other genes that protect from disease- The sickle cell gene- if a person has one of these genes, they are protected from malaria (that actually a parasite)- unfortunately, two copies of that gene cause sickle cell anemia.<br><br>
Anyway, there are many other factors as well- nutrition being extremely important.<br><br>
Another thing to note is that it's not the actual bacteria that cause you to get sick, it is the toxins they produce. So if you just a few Strep pyogenes bacteria in your throat, it won't bother you, but if that's the only thing living in your throat, they produce some very harsh toxins, thus the sore throat.
 

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<div>Originally Posted by <strong>amnesiac</strong></div>
<div style="font-style:italic;">I just have to disagree with the notion that germs never play a role in disease processes. Of course they are not the sole factor, host factors are most certainly involved. But there is indeed evidence that they can & do play a role in disease processes under the right circumstances, which seems to me to be exactly what Ms Vetrano ( I'm not sure whether to call her "Dr." or not since her address is in Texas but she holds neither a medical nor a chiropractic license in that state) and Virchow were saying.<br><br>
Sometimes whether or not a germ causes infection is dependent on location. One example might be hib -- hanging out in the throat it's not such a problem, but if something happens to allow it access to a place it shouldn't be... say the central nervous system... then it's a problem. In this case, the germ isn't the problem itself, the host factors are because they are what allowed the microbe to be where it shouldn't.</div>
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What if the called germs go to parts of the body that are toxic to clease the area and allow the body to regenerate, depending on where in the body and what the toxins are will determine which bateria you will find there cleaning up. This manifests as a specific disease when in fact it is a recation to a specific toxicity.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Take children with SCID as another example. These children don't have problems if they aren't exposed to germs. So the germs do play a role in that child's disease process but it's the host's immune incompetence that allows it to happen.</td>
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Pardon my ignorance, I don't know what SCID stands for, however. I think you are looking at this backwards. These children's bodies are so toxic that any bateria is going to cause a cleansing. So again, is it not the terrain that is the problem? I am in no doubt that radical dietary changes would assist these poor kids.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;"><b>Take post-op wounds -- if they get infected, they don't heal. But if you kill those "firefighter" germs as you say (either with the immune system or medication or wound care), the wound heals. Firefighters extinguish fires, Pseudomonas in a post-op wound doesn't benefit the individual, it's just taking advantage of a nice new home. Measles or hib or whatever in the brain doesn't benefit the individual. As you also mention, puerperal fever above.</b></td>
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Those in the hospital recovering from post-op wounds are highly toxic. Their bodies which were already very, very compromised from poor diet, neurotoxins, chemical drugs, add to this add the mercury and other chemical laden anticeptic swaps used to "clean" the place of the incision, that has gotten into the body from the open wound. It is no wonder the firefighter germs are going to go in. Given the condition of the poor patient, in this instance I would have to agree that stopping the detox with antibiotics is probably the best course of action. They are probably too toxic to survive given the chemical cocktails and toxic foods they are being fed, and then deal with consequences later. The toxins are still in the body and will result in a detox at a later date, hopefully when they are far from the hospital and doctors. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/wink1.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="wink1"><br><br>
The Measles or hib in the brain are there to remove toxins, they most certainly do benefit the indiviual if no further toxins are introduced to further compromise the body. If left alone, even on toxic cooked food diets, the body will heal itself of cancer and other diseases 60% of the time. Many of those cures come after a cold, flu, meningitis or pneumonia which are all natural detoxifications.<br><br>
But the point is not to get the body so toxic that these things happen in the first place, right! <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/thumb.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="thumbs up"> And this includes not giving children vaccinations. <img alt="" class="inlineimg" src="http://www.mothering.com/discussions/images/smilies/smile.gif" style="border:0px solid;" title="smile">
 

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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">What if the called germs go to parts of the body that are toxic to clease the area and allow the body to regenerate, depending on where in the body and what the toxins are will determine which bateria you will find there cleaning up. This manifests as a specific disease when in fact it is a recation to a specific toxicity.</td>
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Umm... well they do go to & proliferate in areas that support their growth. That's really what these early theorists are saying-- the mere presence of germs alone do not cause disease, but rather some imbalance or dysfunction (perhaps another disese process even) allows the germs to cause disease. I wouldn't call what MRSA or Pseudomonas do in a post op wound "cleaning up" though.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">Pardon my ignorance, I don't know what SCID stands for, however. I think you are looking at this backwards. These children's bodies are so toxic that any bateria is going to cause a cleansing. So again, is it not the terrain that is the problem? I am in no doubt that radical dietary changes would assist these poor kids.</td>
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Ever hear of "bubble boy" -- that is SCID. No amount of dietary change can make up for the fact that their immune system doesn't work due to an recessive genetic trait. They aren't toxic, their defense mechanisms just aren't there. I wouldn't call what baterial exposure does to those children cleansing either.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">The Measles or hib in the brain are there to remove toxins, they most certainly do benefit the indiviual if no further toxins are introduced to further compromise the body.</td>
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I admit it.. I'm rolling my eyes as I type. Got any evidence for me to see of this "cleaning up" process? My opinion is that is garbage. Those organisms have been allowed to get to the brain because of dysfunction somewhere else. The terrain is the problem because it allowed them to get that far not because there's some toxin in the brain that needs munching. Their existence is not to benefit us, it's the same as any other living thing-- propogation of their species. And when they're presented with conditions that allow them to better do that, they take advantage of that situation.<br><br><div style="margin:20px;margin-top:5px;">
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<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="99%"><tr><td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset;">But the point is not to get the body so toxic that these things happen in the first place, right!</td>
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That I do agree with. It's just not realistic to think that can always happen.
 

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Gitti - ye I do believe there i an extenuating factor in case where an immune ystem turns on a healthy body - and ye I do believe it i due to vaccine in my ds's case.<br>
After all - vaccine ARE meant to illicit an immune respone right? We just do not know how far that response will go.
 
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