Dandelion root, tea or capsule and enzymes. Lemon juice or apple cider vinegar in warm water but slowly not too much.

 

Some theorize that the craving for sugar is actually a sign of protein deficiency...did you know that? ;-)

Pre-e is one of the most mysterious things to occur to pregnant women--no one really knows for sure why it occurs or how to make it stop, although some things work for some women. One theory is actually genetic--a protein metabolism issue that is only activated with the extra work of pregnancy (putting it simplistically). Another genetic theory is basically that the mom is having an allergic reaction of sorts to her baby. However, the first genetic issue is very rare; the second is becoming more accepted but is not proven yet. It *is* known that those who get pre-e once, are more likely to get it again (among other different risk factors).

Also, it now thought fairly widely that even though pre-e signs/symptoms do not manifest until 3rd trimester, it is actually something set in motion at the outset of pregnancy with the earliest formation of the placenta. (If you google pre-e, you will get thousands of hits--I sifted through some of this info a couple of years back when I had to write a paper on it.) The placenta is waaaaayyyy more than just a device to perform nutrient/waste exchange between mother and baby--it is also a veritable powerhouse of hormone production, a great variety of hormones which act to change mom's metabolism in the ways needed to suport pregnancy, birth and lactation. Oh, so many things are done or mediated by the placenta--so, if it's early formation is not quite right, well, that sets up conditions in which mom's body cannot adequately meet the demands of pregnancy, and in some cases the placenta also doesn't do a good job of nutrient/waste exchange for baby, impacting baby's size and health (tho most pre-e babies are normal sized or even larger than average). Things go along ok at first, but as time passes and the job of growing a baby (while still supporting mom's functions) goes on, mom's systems cannot keep up with the demand. Various functions start to slip.

You asked why your liver and kidneys were under so much stress. Well, those organs do a big job every day--and a far bigger job during pregnancy. Every pregnant woman's liver and kidneys are 'under stress'--required to do more than the usual amount of work during pregnancy. In your case (or anyone disposed toward pre-e) it is a matter of kidneys and liver that are unable to meet with the normal stresses of pregnancy. You can count yourself lucky--because you already know that a high protein diet serves you well. Some women try many things and find nothing that helps prevent the progress to eclampsia. The high protein diet is one thing that helps some women; other remedies are higher doses of antioxidants, higher doses of calcium and magnesium, various herbs and/or meds to regulate b/p, aid kidneys/liver, etc. Each of these works for some women--and for some women none of these things works.

I add that with true pre-e, just taking herbs/meds/etc aimed to lower the b/p is NOT going to do any real good. The issue is not the b/p per se--the elevated b/p in true pre-e is a secondary sign--mom's body is trying to make up for circulatory deficiencies originating earlier, in faulty kidney and liver function (protein issues), by upping the b/p in a desperate attempt to keep up adequate placental perfusion to baby. Simple elevated b/p of late pregnancy (by itself) is not an issue anyway--normal for some moms. In these cases, herbs/etc for lowering b/p may help, but aren't really needed anyway. But directly lowering the b/p will NOT help the kidneys and liver if they're really compromised in a case of pre-e or HELLP Syndrome.

In any event, there is a vast amount of research that's been done on pre-e...and it is still largely a mystery. I hope that you can go back to your high protein diet, and spare yourself further discomfort and have your normal birth! It seems that with the protein, this may well be within reach.

Maybe think of it this way--not that you're going to give up the sugar (who wants to feel deprived?), but that you are going to do yourself and baby a huge lifetime favor by always choosing a hi protein snack BEFORE eating that cookie

good luck.

 

Kangaromum you said....

"Dandelion root, tea or capsule and enzymes. Lemon juice or apple cider vinegar in warm water but slowly not too much."

Can you elaborate a little. I have not heard of using dandelion root yet, and you added enzymes, I'm a bit confused is this in addition or is it part of the dandelion root/tea? And then you said lemon or apple cider vinegar in warm water slowly. Do you mean as a separate drink and how slowly and in how much water. Any other info on what these do or how they work? Thanks if you have time to add more info.

MsBlack thanks for your info as well. Pre-e is such a mystery I guess I just get a bit frustrated with it. Neither my previous midwife or my current can say if I had pre-e before or not (I guess it's just hard to say since we don't really know what it is right.) But I had several signs of it, although after my c-section was over we all felt perhaps we were a little too alarmed by them and invasive in our response, but hindsight is 20/20 right.

I feel a lot more confident in my understand after reading your explanation of the condition. I'm sure it's not something that I have not read before but as you well know there is so much scattered information about the subject and it's really hard to get a good grasp on it.

The high protein diet, along with supplements of calc/mag, milk thistle, and lowering the stress in my life seem to do the trick. Although I was still spilling trace amounts it's a lot less to worry about. I'm just worried that as the demands on my body increase that I won't be able to stave off the protein spillage and other symptoms as well, then be forced once again to birth in a way I distain. I guess I better just get to work and do the best I can though, see what happens.

By the way I had never heard of sugar cravings being linked to low protein, but I do notice they leave when I'm cramming the protein like a football player!

Oh yeah I've read that supplementing with Spirulina can help as well, anyone heard about that?

Sav

 

The problem with signs of pre-e is that things can go south very rapidly--most HCPs fear this a lot! Elevated b/p by itself is not usually a concern....but once there is some protein spilling (a trace is NORMAL tho), swelling in hands/face not just feet/ankles, more than one sign accompanying b/p rise, HCPs can tend to act first, sort it out later....which can definitely mean the possibility of unnecessary interventions.

anyway--can't remember who said sugar craving was linked to a need for protein. Possibly Adele Davis, who wrote Let's Eat Right to Keep Fit and some other books on nutrition, back in the 70s. She was a huge fan of high protein diets for everyone, not just pregnant women. But I know that others have picked up on this theory, whoever said it first. And you would not be the first pregnant woman I've met, to say the sugar craving left, or greatly reduced, with an increase of protein. Conversely, some of the biggest sugar junkies I"ve known among pregnant women, were those whose diets were generally poor--too low in protein and all nutrients. Sugar is a particularly evil 'quick fix' because of course it helps us feel good (brain chemistry) but also, because it immediately cures hunger. And if a soda, or cookie or whatever makes you feel 'full enough', elevating your blood sugar and stopping hunger signals, then you're not going to have the desire to eat anything, much less anything that takes thought and work to provide for yourself.

I'm no purist here, definitely have my sweet indulgences. But--especially when pregnant, ya just can't substitute sweets for needed nutrients.

good luck with this!

 

I am thinking that spirulina is high in calcium and other minerals that do aid functioning of all your systems--minerals that, like protein, are needed in greater quantity during pregnancy.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MsBlack The problem with signs of pre-e is that things can go south very rapidly--most HCPs fear this a lot! Elevated b/p by itself is not usually a concern....but once there is some protein spilling (a trace is NORMAL tho), swelling in hands/face not just feet/ankles, more than one sign accompanying b/p rise, HCPs can tend to act first, sort it out later....which can definitely mean the possibility of unnecessary interventions.

Her labs are most concerning to me. She may never get get swelling or epigastric pain that are also hallmarks of Pre-E she may just have elevated and elevating pressures, spill increasing amounts of protein and via labs watch her kidneys and liver continue to take a dump.

Out of all the things listed to watch for the labs checking kidney and liver values would be the ones that I'd want to see and watch more closely.

 

I was in fear that my midwife is really looking at me as on the edge of high risk. She says if my labs continue to do well then there really isn't an issue, but I fear like you mentioned MsBlack it could go bad fast right at the end. I'm getting nervous because the town I live in doesn't allow vbac's so if I do need to go to the hospital it's going to be automatic c-section talk. I REALLY REALLY don't want to ever have a child cut from me again. It was traumatic and devastating for me.

But let's say I do have some bad labs and rising blood pressure towards the end, what really will be my choices even if I travel to a town that does vbac and find a friendly provider? I can see that my midwife will not be able to keep me as a patient but will my only safe choices be another c-section since care providers will want to act first,c ask questions later? I mean I can't really induce safely. So what other choices will I have? Stay in the hospital and be monitored? Or monitor myself closely at home?

Sorry I'm getting ahead of myself here but I'm starting to think maybe I should get a back up in case. I'm very willing and ready to handle a doctor and hospital staff who are pushing towards unnecessary interventions but with pre-e I feel like I'm really lost as to where I'm safe and where I'm not.

For instance last go around the OB and my HB midwife both thought I should go straight to to c-section based solely on spilling protein, elevated but not dangerous blood pressure, postdates, and one morning of slight dizziness and nausea. Afterwards it was concluded that inside me everything looked great. My placenta, water, baby, not really pre-eclamptic. Later my midwife felt there was no need for the section but that there was no way of telling that before they did the surgery. I kind of agree and can see that point of view, but I'm unwilling to do that again and now that I have a scar there are even less options for me right?

What do you ladies think am I being closed minded because I'm so scared of having another c-section? I mean I know there is a decent chance my diet will take care of my health issues but I just want to be prepared in case. Also at what point if any would you hire a back up? I don't want to get an on call doc if my midwife dumps me last minute. Should I just take a wait and see approach should my labs continue to be bad then decide? Thats what I'm thinking I should do, but at what point with crappy labs should I hire an OB?

Sorry my wheels are really turning now, thanks to anyone who has the time to reply.

 

first, I do NOT think you are crazy, selfish, or any other bad thing for wanting to avoid another csec. Not at all. And I know that you will do it again if you really beleive you must--but that does NOT mean you give up now on searching out options, trying to have a plan and a backup plan, doing everything you can to have a normal birth. Of COURSE you want a normal birth--of course you will try to avoid csec. IMO, everyone oughta avoid csec when at all possible, in the interests of what is best for self and baby (with exceptions, of course).

And hey--despite some jumpy behavior by HCPs last time, it turned out you/baby WEREN'T in danger after all. So--you know that you have some issues that arise with pregnancy, and they are the kind of issues that *could* lead to trouble and *do* tend to make HCPs jumpy. You also know that for you, these issues are not so much to be afraid of--your body does handle it very well after all.

See what I mean?

Rather than thinking of yourself as a ticking bomb, think of yourself as someone who, despite a sort of vulnerability to the stresses of pregnancy, is actually able to manage very well anyway.

In your shoes, I'd probably want to do 2 things: one is, make sure my mw was not the jumpy sort. I'm serious--if you don't have her already, find someone seasoned and birth-trusting who has seen enough variations to feel comfortable with your set of vulnerabilities (as long as you are doing all you can to help yourself--and with an eye on liver via bloodwork now and then). First it is important that you are pro-active but not overly anxious; second it is important that your mw is also pro-active but not overly anxious.

The other thing I'd probably do is go ahead and look into finding backup med care--at least investigate the OBs and hospitals, see what looks like a possible avenue of Last Resort if hb begins to look too risky. Whether or not you actually hire someone to provide co-care depends on whether or not you can find someone suitable....if you can at least identify the hospital where you are most likely to be treated w/respect, that might be enough.

for me, feeling certain that my mw was solid and not easily fazed by one sign or another, and then knowing where/to whom I would go for med care if needed, would both act to settle my insecurities quite a bit. Best of all would be finding a very cool OB...not always possible tho, and I'd probably be willing to settle for that hospital where I thought chances were good I'd be reasonably respected if I did transfer care ultimately.

By the way--those urine test strips are just not all that reliable, and I don't even use them anymore in my practice. To find out if you are really spilling urine, I'd ask for a 24-hr urine collection test--which provides far more reliable results. You may not be spilling any--or not much--protein at all. If you are tho, that would be time to have the blood tests to check up on liver function.

And 114gms of protein may be more than you actually need. I would think that getting 85-100 a day would be plenty--as long as no days were below 85gms, and some days were at least 100gms.

In any event, don't trust the urine test strips--get better testing done to be sure you know exactly where things are at. And DO trust yourself! You really do have evidence from your last birth that in spite of your vulnerabilities and 'oddities' of some readings, you grow a healthy baby while keeping yourself healthy enough. Stress is one of the worst enemies of normal healthy pregnancy and birth--take action as you are able to, and keep breathing deep and dancing onward.

 

Thank you MsBlack yet again. You probably don't know how nice it feels to have some one validate my feelings on this issue. I've realized I most likely need to have some deeper discussions with my midwife.

THANK YOU for reminding me about a piece of information I do have, that even though I do have some kind of funk that happens during pregnancy, last time all was well when it came down to it. Last time I didn't have that info, and I also didn't know I was headed towards pre-eclampsia until very late in the game so there wasn't much at the time I could about preventing it. Your really helping me put things into a bigger perspective here.

Gosh it makes it hard to judge my midwives jumpiness when I like her so much! She's not seasoned, and in fact in her first years of practice. She's also a natropath, I don't know if I mentioned that before or if it fits into our picture at all. Tell me if you think she sounds jumpy.

We found early on that I needed to have my liver and kidneys checked after spilling massive protein in my urine. (I know that they are not truly accurate but they pointed us toward the first testing.) When the tests came back she sat me down and had a very serious conversation with me and my husband. I told her I thought it was due to my really bad diet at the time and huge amounts of stress, which we had already talked about at our previous visit. She said that if I didn't get these things under control that it's most likely that I will risk out before my birth and end up having to change my birth plans. She help me set a plan to buckle down. It worked. Does that seem alarmist to you? I think she was probably correct. I think I'm probably in the best hands living where I live, a seasoned midiwife would probably be my first choice, but honestly slim pickings here. I'd have to go at least an hour and a half away to find another midwife, maybe two. Gosh I've almost got this one paid off and.... would I have to start over again? (I know that's not what's important but like most people we have limited money.) I will change if I have to.

She and I have discussed back up OB's and plans for me. I belong to ICAN so I am sure I have the best advice on med pro's in the area. I know my option and who I will go to if I have to change. I just was not sure if I shouldn't have a plan to start seeing him if A B or C happens and I'm so many weeks along. I'm sure my midwife will help me figure this out though. I am a bit worried that though that the OB I will want if I get worse might not be accepting new patients as late in the game as I will be. How do OB's feel about that usually?

I've heard not to take the urine dip sticks too seriously, and I don't. If we have bad ones she sends me for further testing to the lab, does that seem reasonable? I think she may just have me keep doing labs once a month, or more, until delivery. Oh and about the protein I'm back down to only 100 gm, I'm not sure why she had me up so high at first.

Anther question.....
If I were truly eclamptic with my previous pregnancy what would most likely happen to me and my body? The last OB went on about eclamptic shock, which I thought was really rare. Isn't being monitored in the hospital enough to see signs of this before it happens? Has anyone ever seen this happen, is it just so sudden and out of control that it scares the crap out of everyone. There has to be warning signs right? He made it sound so cut and dry. And what could we have expected to see during my c-section if I had been in trouble? A graded placenta... anything else? Trying to build up my confidence from my last birth. I'm not sure what everyone meant when they kept saying everything looked so good afterward, what would bad look like?

Stress does kick my butt during pregnancy so keep breathing deep and dancing onward I go!

Thanks again,

Sav

edited because I had to type under the pressure of my toddler demanding my attention

 

Dandelion root tea helps support the liver and kidneys, it also helped get my blood pressure down with #2. The lemon juice and acv also support liver health, I'd just add the juice of one lemon to 1 cup of warm water, and try drinking that first thing in the morning, or a splash of raw acv. Enzymes are very important for the digestion of protien. A good way to do that is eating some fermented veggies with your meat. If you're not into making them (and it's not hard) you can find bubbies brand sauerkraut and pickles at most health food stores. Regular sauerkraut will not work, as it's been overheated and is not usually fermented. There's also pills, but I think fresh is better.

 

Sav--

I agree with kangaroomum in general, that it would probably be good for you take some herbs/supplements to support liver and kidneys. Since your mw is a naturapath, has she made suggestions in this direction yet? If not, you might want to get her thoughts on this idea. Or maybe instead, herbs/etc to help with your stress--tho liver support and stress support are not entirely different from each other anyway. As a naturapath, surely she can diagnose and suggest support measures that are best suited to you, individually, using her naturapathic 'eye'.

From what you say about your mw on all levels, it does seem that you have chosen well for yourself, despite her relative lack of experience as a mw. The fact that you like her so much is a good thing--feeling safe and supported and liked is so very important in the Grand Scheme of Maternity Care. Michel Odent says that feeling safe may well be THE most important thing for pregnant women's health--tho I would add that 'feeling safe' should come about in part through mom's informed approach to her care. That is, not just trusting blindly based on personality alone, nor based upon socially conditioned trust in health providers generally--either/both of which can lead to trusting one that has not been carefully examined (as best one can) for their actual expertise and currency of knowledge.

And the above is one of those moments when I am speaking to any/all who might be reading this thread. I mention this because you need to understand that I am not just talking to you. I realize from your posts that some of what I say does not (not so much, not so specifically) apply to you, but could well apply to others lurking. The more you have told me, the more I think that you are taking the most important steps into wise empowerment on behalf of yourself and baby! Yay for you.

I'm so glad to understand that your mw is a naturapath....I was wondering who she was in terms of training/orientation, and was going to suggest that you see a naturapath or chinese med practitioner or someone well-versed in supporting health holistically and naturally. You are already doing so and I think that's great in terms of maximizing your chances of having a healthy normal birth.

As for your former doc and his scary words about pre-e and all the worst-case scenarios--well, that is how docs all too often speak. For one thing, he was simply expressing his fear--and there is a lot of fear at the foundation of allopathic medicine. And of course, an OB does see these worst-case scenarios, because s/he sees ALL KINDS of clients, from the healthiest and most proactive to the most generally unhealthy and simply ignorant and passive about their health (not meaning this as a judgement, it's simply true that some people know nothing about creating health, or lack the resources to get healthier). And while it is true that sometimes, these worst case scenarios DO happen even to women who seem otherwise pretty healthy, that is in fact quite rare. Well, the very worst case scenarios that he mentioned are rare anyway, for anyone--just *more* rare among those who are healthier and more pro-active/empowered, and more common among those who are not healthy nor empowered. If that makes sense.

And secondly, docs are taught, as a specific and focussed element of their training, to assume and maintain control over patients and the dr-patient relationship. The use of fear/intimidation is very commonly understood as a potent technique for gaining control over another. Have you ever watched the TV show "house"? A creepy, horrifying and fascinating study of this phenomenon---Dr House has absolutely no compunctions about utilizing fear to bully his patients (and colleagues), and is well aware of himself in doing so. I doubt your OB is House! Yet he was indeed trained the same general way as House.

So, in a real way I think you just need to let go of that past experience-try to forget about it. Your mw and doc last time were wrong, plain and simple. This is a new deal that need not be burdened by their past jumpiness and mistakes.

I also don't think that your mw now is being too jumpy. Given that she has done all that I would do (and have seen recommended by the seasoned confident mws I know) in terms of testing, recommendations and such, it seems that she is responding appropriately to your actual situation (not just to a blanket fear). Given that she has indeed done those deeper labs for you, and knows that you are under stress, seems to me that I would do pretty much as she is doing-taking this seriously, but not panicking; making strong recommendations and trying to convey 2 things: 1 is that she is concerned, and why, and what you might do to improve things and 2. is that she still believes/trusts that you are able to take right action to promote and preserve yours/baby's health.

As for when, and under what conditions and timing, you might choose to seek the new OB's care for this pg/birth, that is very hard to say from this vantage point. If midwifery/homebirth is legal in your state, and this OB really is as cool as you think you can believe, then maybe a very late transfer will not be a problem. Hmmmm....maybe you could try to set up an app't soon to meet with him, and try to get some sense of all this? Not knowing this doc, it's very hard to say whether or not you should be direct about this.

I call stress the Great Ruiner of Pregnancy and Birth (of Life, really! but we are all the more susceptible to the physical/physiological impact of stress when pregnant). So I again say, breathe deep. Take walks or dance to some favorite music every day-*some* kind of enjoyable physical activity to deepen your breathing and improve oxygenation, to improve all of your systems' functioning, to generally increase your physical strength (which will help you feel emotionally stronger too) and to discharge pent up stress-energy. Feed your mind and soul with positive thoughts, birth stories, with loving words to your baby, your dh and toddler, to yourself. Remind yourself as often as needed (more often needed some days than others, I'm sure) that you DID remain healthy last time, and CAN remain healthy this time as well-that you can trust yourself: you can trust your healthy body with it's peculiarities, trust your will and actions to take good care of you and baby, and trust your instincts/intuition to guide you to the right decisions each moment.

In my opinion that has only been strengthened by various experiences with clients over time as well as various birth stories by moms that I have read, it is your own instincts and intuition that are your most reliable guides. If/when to seek med care; knowing how you and baby are really doing; what to do, to best serve your own and baby's health from now on-these things can be well served in part by knowledge/tests/'facts of the case', but only in part. As you discovered with your last pregnancy, that information went only so far to guide you! So practice listening within, from a calm present space, and trust that you will know what to do along the way.

 

Hi there,
It sounds like you and i have the same kind of problems, I am 30 weeks pregnant now and have been having various tests for the last 2 weeks as they found 4 plusses of protein in my urine, i have been backwards and forwards to the hospital to have various checks and to be monitored re blood pressure and blood tests.
My blood pressure isn't hight but slightly raised to what it was when started visiting the midwife. The doctors have been doing weekly blood tests and 24 hour urine collections to check the level of protein but doesn't seem to be coming down in anyway. I have had scans to check the water around the baby and the blood flow from the placenta to the baby and next week i am booked in to have a scan on my kidneys as i have been getting very bad lower pains when sitting at the computer at a slight twisted position. The pain doesn't last long its when i stand up and try to walk after, feels like my legs are going to collaspse. I also had swelling and protein at the end of my last pregnancy during the last weeks and was induced just at the end as a precaution but all was ok.
This time it all seems to be happening at a very early stage, i don't know why. Once i have had the scan on the kidneys next week i am seeing the consultant the day after as he is going to let me know the results and plan of action as they may have to induce again in 4 weeks depening on the dangers. I have good faith in the doctors as they have all really been on the ball and keeping close checks, last week they gave me a steroid injection which helps the babies lungs develop quicker just incase they have to being it on early so i have all the confidence if this baby is early it will be healthy.
Once i find out the results re the kidney scan i will post again so you know the outcome as there might be some tests the doctors are not doing for you and that you are able to ask about or request if you know about them.
Anyway good luck with you, hope alll is well in the end as it is a worry.

 

leahminx I updated about this problem in another thread if you search for it you should be able to find it.

Anyway just wanted to let you know that I changed my diet and had since have not had protein in my urine. I'm eating 100gm of protein and drinking lots of water, more than 64oz/day. I've also cut out most if not all refined and processed foods. When I slide back even a little protein shows up, but as soon as I get back on it, I'm fine. So far I'm right on track to having this baby at term and still at home.

My doctor ran blood tests and feels confident that they will tell her what she needs to know. As long as my liver and kidneys are functioning well she's not worried about it. As far as I've researched we are watching all the indications for HELLP and pre-e so I don't think there are any more tests that would benefit me, although I appreciated your concern. I am worried a bit though that your doctors are running tests but not helping you do anything to correct the problem. Remember a good diet won't hurt you, and may prolong or put off an early delivery. I wish you luck!

Sav