41 children, FORTY ONE, have evidence of broken bones?

 

Oh goody, more violent crimes against the children to worry about. Turns out, there are broken bones after all, suggesting the sort of abuse that has been documented at other FLDS compounds like this one. And it's not just the girls who are being sexually abused.

Just when you think it can't get any worse.

Quote:

Mothers who stayed with their children for two weeks after the raid launched a coordinated effort to stymie investigators, coaching their children to not answer questions, Cockerell said. He said the women and children would gather into apparent family units, with the children referring to several women as their mother, then the "women switched children in these family units ... making it difficult." "When asked, women and children would change their names and ages," he said. The CPS report also said authorities "tried to use bracelets to identify children, but the women and children removed the bracelets or rubbed the wording off them." The report also said mothers at first refused to let the children undergo basic health screenings and that "many" teen girls declined to take pregnancy tests.

Impeding a investigation is a crime in and of itself.

These are the actions of people who are actively trying to cover up the truth for as long as possible.

 

So, I guess we've all decided that these women are as bad as the men. Why not just send them back to the compound, and let the other kids grow up..their hold on the public sympathy apparently dries up at 17 or 18 or something, anyway.

The children played along with this - does that make them criminals? Are they trying to cover up the truth as long as possible?

I don't understand the split in attitudes about the women in the compound - not at all. Somehow, it's okay to take their children, and treat them as both victims and perpetrators at the same time, no matter what it puts them or their children through.

These people probably don't trust outsiders. I wouldn't let someone I didn't trust perform a "basic health screening" on my child, either. Half the women here would cheer me on in my refusal and my desire to protect my kids. These women need help and support - they don't need to have their children stolen from (no doubt reinforcing everything they've been taught about the evil, scary world outside the compound). And, frankly, whatever their lives have been like, I'd probably refuse to take a state-ordered pregnancy test, too...butt the hell out of my reproductive life, thanks.

There's a tone to this whole thing that really freaks me out. Whatever the men may be, the women and children from this compound do not deserve to be treated this way.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storm Bride So, I guess we've all decided that these women are as bad as the men. Why not just send them back to the compound, and let the other kids grow up..their hold on the public sympathy apparently dries up at 17 or 18 or something, anyway. The children played along with this - does that make them criminals? Are they trying to cover up the truth as long as possible? I don't understand the split in attitudes about the women in the compound - not at all. Somehow, it's okay to take their children, and treat them as both victims and perpetrators at the same time, no matter what it puts them or their children through. These people probably don't trust outsiders. I wouldn't let someone I didn't trust perform a "basic health screening" on my child, either. Half the women here would cheer me on in my refusal and my desire to protect my kids. These women need help and support - they don't need to have their children stolen from (no doubt reinforcing everything they've been taught about the evil, scary world outside the compound). And, frankly, whatever their lives have been like, I'd probably refuse to take a state-ordered pregnancy test, too...butt the hell out of my reproductive life, thanks. There's a tone to this whole thing that really freaks me out. Whatever the men may be, the women and children from this compound do not deserve to be treated this way.

treated what way? I don't get what is so horrible. the mothers are just as brainwashed as those kids. and they all quite obviously live in FEAR. doesn't sound heavenly and peaceful to me.

the children also don't deserve to endure years of abuse in that compound. I am not sure what the big upcry is about. if they were left there the gov't would be chastized as well for doing nothing, so it's really a no win situation (especially in light of Waco I doubt TX can do everything right to please everyone).

 

There is apparently a physician who is a member of the FLDS who said the broken bones were from minor falls...Please...kids don't break bones from minor falls! I can't believe this person is so lame as to use that excuse. That is like the typical child abuser line.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by janasmama There is apparently a physician who is a member of the FLDS who said the broken bones were from minor falls...Please...kids don't break bones from minor falls! I can't believe this person is so lame as to use that excuse. That is like the typical child abuser line.

I knew plenty of kids who broke bones at school by falling off play equipment or falling wrong during sports. I wished for a broken arm most my childhood so i could get out of schoolwork for a while

:

so yes, kids can break bones in normal childhood falls.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by wonderwahine I knew plenty of kids who broke bones at school by falling off play equipment or falling wrong during sports. I wished for a broken arm most my childhood so i could get out of schoolwork for a while : so yes, kids can break bones in normal childhood falls.

i am betting anything there is no sports or playground equipment on that compound. just my guess though!

 

there are trees though, and kids climb trees. My brother broke his leg jumping out of a tree.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by wonderwahine there are trees though, and kids climb trees. My brother broke his leg jumping out of a tree.

true!

 

I'm just saying that not all of these may have been abuse. Kids do get broken bones without abuse. 41 kids out of 464 kids isnt a huge sign of abuse IMO. There could very well be physical abuse, but at this time, its just not clear enough to say it definatly is.

 

ABC news tonight was saying that 10% of the kids have broken bones, by comparison 1% of children in the community outside the compound (the county I think?) have broken bones.

The difference in those proportions is horrifying.

 

And the arguement can be made that the average american child is probably not as active as the kids in the compound.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainbowmoon treated what way? I don't get what is so horrible.

They've had their children taken away from them. Personally, I'd find that pretty horrible.

Quote:

the mothers are just as brainwashed as those kids. and they all quite obviously live in FEAR. doesn't sound heavenly and peaceful to me.

I'm sorry - where did I suggest that anything about this was heavenly or peaceful? I didn't say it, nor did I imply it. I'm sure they live in fear. From all accounts of what the compound is like, they also live in fear of the outside...so a bunch of strangers came and took them away, then took their children, and we're condemning the mother's criminal acts when those mothers attempt to frustrate the people doing this? I don't get it. We're condemning (rightly, if even half of what's been said about the compound is true) the men in this compound, and expressing sympathy for the women living in fear...but condemning them for trying to protect themselves and their children from both outside authority and what is probably rampant fear that their "husbands" will make them pay if they cooperate.

Quote:

the children also don't deserve to endure years of abuse in that compound. I am not sure what the big upcry is about. if they were left there the gov't would be chastized as well for doing nothing, so it's really a no win situation (especially in light of Waco I doubt TX can do everything right to please everyone).

I actually don't have a big problem with the kids being removed from the compound, although I find the circumstances really weird. Are the kids currently with their mothers? From everything I've read (not a huge amount, but some), it seems that they're not. Why?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by wonderwahine And the arguement can be made that the average american child is probably not as active as the kids in the compound.

There is that. One of ds1's playmates as a child had broken bones at least three times in two years. She was very active, and was a total daredevil. DS1 broke his own arm by jumping off a couch with his eyes closed, just before his...4th birthday.

I'm not saying that the numbers don't sound bad. They do - but I don't like the instant "child has a broken arm, so someone did it to them" mindset. OTOH, the FLDS doctor's comment sounds really fishy.

 

Yeah, I'm not denying there may be abuse, but I'm not going to run around with my head cut of claiming all 41 were abused to break those bones.

IMO most of the "professionals" on the compound, anytime they speak, they sound fishy and prewritten.

 

yeah, my kid has had three broken bones, at the age of four. Two buckle fractures on the end of his arm bone from falling off hotel beds (blame cosleeping with a cosleeper normally, not used to not switching him in my sleep while in a hotel bed), and once from a fall while jumping on the couch. I bet my kid is just as active as those kids, he is a dynamo.

But that does seem like an awful high number of breaks, and I don't for one minute doubt that physical punishment was a very regular occurence. That situation just wreaks of physical intimidation.

Quote:

Are the kids currently with their mothers? From everything I've read (not a huge amount, but some), it seems that they're not. Why?

Um, how would anyone know? The mothers don't want THEIR children identified with THEM? Seriously, all the hiding of who's who's kid and all, sorry not buying their innocence at that point. Brainwashed or not, there comes a point when you have to deny your abusers and stop helping them. Otherwise you end up smelling just as bad as they do. Look at Patty Hearst. Especially when you are in custody by the state and your abusers cannot touch you any longer. Look at the woman in Austria, she was abused for 24 years and she managed to tell the police what happened to her once she knew she he would be locked up.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storm Bride Are the kids currently with their mothers? From everything I've read (not a huge amount, but some), it seems that they're not. Why?

From some of what I've read, several mothers chose to return to the compound without their children.

I'm looking for a cite for that.

 

There are so many children + mothers that there are many different arrangments being made. Teen mothers are being placed in foster homes, some with and some without their children. It's hard to find placements for 10 child sibling groups.

I DO NOT like all the spin. Telling us that X% of teens are pregnant or have children. Age matters! Tell the % of 13-14 year olds that are pregnant. 14-16 yo. I can't get upset about 18-19 year olds that are pregnant. It's spin. 9 month olds with broken legs or ribs is very concerning. 6 year olds with broken leg - not so much. That's spin.

 

When I heard this on the news I was saddened that there is clear evidence that things really were that awry and at the same time glad there was finally an answer. *Until* they had to note that there was no particular evidence given that the breaks were caused by abuse (spiral fractures, etc). I mean, I've read that American kids are something like 50% more likely to break bones now than the rates of 50 years ago. It usually comes up in the context of discussions on bone density and nutrition/exercise. It does not come in in conversations speculating about how much more abusive parents are now than 50 years ago, KWIM? Saying the rates in this community *definitely* shows abuse ...

I don't know. I just don't. But this ongoing push for a "gotcha!" moment really bugs me more and more. If something is clear then it's clear, but there's no value in reporting on what something *might* mean against these people when it might just as well mean something else.

 

My first thought was that about 10% of the kids have evidence of having broken a bone in their lifetime - is that really so high?? I honestly don't know, so I'd love some clarification.

 

All I need to know that this community had a policy making children pregnant. Systematically.

I do not care how many broken bones there are or how brainwashed or not the mothes are.

Sexual abuse of children is wrong. And whatever is needed to be done to end it must be done.

If it really means that a mother(brainwashed or not)would allow her 13 years old child to have sex and get pregnant by some older guy then - yes, take the child away.

Stockholm syndrome,brainwashing,true believers - whatever the excuse is, I don't really care. Sexual abuse of children is dead wrong.

If the leaders of this community want to continue "marry" and rape children then they better move to a country where it is allowed and accepted

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by janasmama There is apparently a physician who is a member of the FLDS who said the broken bones were from minor falls...Please...kids don't break bones from minor falls! I can't believe this person is so lame as to use that excuse. That is like the typical child abuser line.

100% of my kids have had broken bones. Yep, both of them. I myself have had two broken bones. None of us have been abused, but I guess if we were examined, that would be considered proof.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by kxsiven All I need to know that this community had a policy making children pregnant. Systematically. I do not care how many broken bones there are or how brainwashed or not the mothes are. Sexual abuse of children is wrong. And whatever is needed to be done to end it must be done. If it really means that a mother(brainwashed or not)would allow her 13 years old child to have sex and get pregnant by some older guy then - yes, take the child away. Stockholm syndrome,brainwashing,true believers - whatever the excuse is, I don't really care. Sexual abuse of children is dead wrong. If the leaders of this community want to continue "marry" and rape children then they better move to a country where it is allowed and accepted

All abuse of kids is wrong........Oh, he isn't just being beat every day it doesn't matter sexual abuse is wrong doest ad up. I just want to know about sex abuse is wrong to.

Now about stockholm....why is it only the woman and children people are worried about? One dad in another article was 20. He grew up in that community. Even though he has a little more power he doesn't have much because he has been through the same brainwashing.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by janasmama There is apparently a physician who is a member of the FLDS who said the broken bones were from minor falls...Please...kids don't break bones from minor falls! I can't believe this person is so lame as to use that excuse. That is like the typical child abuser line.

Yes they do. My dd was 2. Fell like any normal 2 year old falls and broke her tail bone. This is a really rare type of brake for a 2 year old. I understood why they looked for other signs of abuse.

My son severly sprained his ankle from a simple fall. It took 2 days and several x-rays to figure out if his ankle was broken.

I broke my foot stepping out my door barefooted.

I heard crap when my dd swallow her hearing aid battery at 3. Only neglegance allows that to happen. But guess what, kids that wear hearing aids are much more likely to experience swallowing their batteries.

I want to know what the age spans are. I want to know if this 10% is total from 1-18. I want to know what type of brakes and how they are doing it. Something different in their environment could be causing the breaks--simply trees or different play enviornements could be the culprit *ever jump out of a barn loft for fun".

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by North_Of_60 41 children, FORTY ONE, have evidence of broken bones?

Honestly, I'm surprised it isn't higher.