Hi Lydia!

I recenty ran by your blog... very interesting & I'm sorry I missed meeting you at the LA Primere of The Business of Being Born. To answer your question from my knowledge Waldorf says it is okay around age seven or after all the baby teeth have changed.

Personally I believe in moderation. There are many things with Waldorf education that I adore & limiting media is one of them but I intend to limit media..... not restrict it. I agree with the AAP children under two should have NO SCREEN TIME then moderate after that. After two my approach to TV will be to offer my daughter many other things to do.... cooking, crafts, reading, etc. that worked for me and to this day I watch very little. If my shows an interest in TV I will limit the amount & no TV filled with commercials, etc. All that said.... many Waldorf families I know tend to be more relaxed on this subject because I live in Los Angeles (the entertainment capital).

There is a great blog The Not Quite Crunchy and though she supports Waldorf she has found what I consider to be a beautiful middle ground.

 

My children are 2 and almost 4 and right now we're pretty much no tv. They may watch 1, 30 minute show a week if for some reason I need them complete occupied but my goal is no tv. I was thinking after 5 I'll allow 30 min a day but your thread has me thinking...maybe after they can read.

 

Hi, I have read somewhere that 11 yo is the minimum age, something about brain waves?? Wish I could remember the specifics... If you are interested, I can ask my friend cuz she's the one that pointed me in that direction.

That being said, my kids do watch it before that age but mainly in moderation.

 

I grew up in a no TV family. Our rule was that we could watch TV at other people's houses, so basically it started when we were old enough to wander over to someone else's house and watch. Nowadays, kids can't wander.

I brought my daughter up with mostly no TV, but she did watch at other folks houses, once in awhile.

My grandchildren are 8 and 4. Neither has watched TV. The 8 year old saw her first video recently. But it is pretty easy as they don't have a TV. Both parents really dislike it, my daughter because of her upbringing and her husband because he ran a TV station for a couple of years while in college and came to loathe it.

 

For me it would depend less on a particular age and more on when the child could watch and understand and not get completely wrapped up in it. I see many kids who sit and stare at the TV like little zombies, and if I introduce TV to my son and he does that? I would be taking it away again immediately.

Also, I have friends whose kids' play is *all* about Thomas this and Curious George that. If we introduce the TV to Sam, and it takes over his play? Again, we would stop it.

My son is not yet 3, and we have no plans to start him on TV anytime soon. Your plan of 8 seems pretty reasonable to me, but I'd be interested to hear about the brain-wave theory.

 

Yes, I second that-I would love to hear about the brain theory as well.

MP

 

Just remembered something. I think there is something about the effects of TV on the brain in the classic book: "The Plug-in Drug" by Marie Winn.

Also, watching TV slows down the metabolism so much that you can gain weight even if you aren't eating--or so I've heard

 

Endangered Minds is a good book to read on the effect on a child's brain.

 

Thanks for all of your input.

I'm also copying and pasting resources I received from my local moms group...

These sites have more information:
http://www.cyc-net.org/today2001/today010907.html
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/JCP99.html
http://www.time.com/time/health/arti...650352,00.html

"Wait untill your childs has the ability to filter what is seen on tv rationally. Abstract reasoning comes in around 11-12yrs...Check out Brain researcher Joseph Chilten pearce. He has some interesting insight into the tv question. ( The Magical child , evolutions end...)."

 

It was Joseph Chilton Pierce I was talking about, it was years ago that I read it but FASCINATING read... might have to go get it again from the liabrary.

 

Well,

I was doing some research to write a post on introducing TV and I found my blog mentioned as a resource to answer my own question - LOL I'm flattered but...I'm not a font of answers just another poor struggler.

Living in LA with a husband in the entertainment industry, limiting media has its challenges for me. As a compromise, to maintain household harmony, my son had no screen time until he was 2. Since then it has been a wobbly road. He's watched videos in varying amounts since then (he's 6).

We have a receiver (TV) in the house but no signal for commercial television - which is really less of an issue in this age of You Tube and other sites. We like it that way and agree on "no commercial TV" for my son, at least in the house where we can control it. And so, he watches only vidoes.

What's interesting to me is to watch as my more holistic friends attempt to slowly introduce their, Waldorf schooled, no screen time yet, children to videos at 5 or 6 or 7 (as I perhaps a little further on the continuum) try to figure out:

What is the right amount of TV after the total ban is over?

That's something that I'm having difficulty figuring out.

In an ideal world, the child would, and some perhaps do, moderate him or herself. But some do not and some do not at all times. So a few parental guidelines would be helpful...I'll have to see what I can find.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveOhm To answer your question from my knowledge Waldorf says it is okay around age seven or after all the baby teeth have changed. .

I'm curious to know the connection between baby teeth and watching tv. My youngest sister still had a couple of baby teeth at the age of 14...would that mean she shouldn't have watched any tv until then?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparks* I'm curious to know the connection between baby teeth and watching tv. My youngest sister still had a couple of baby teeth at the age of 14...would that mean she shouldn't have watched any tv until then?

No, I think the loss of baby teeth is just one of the physical signs of the changes in intellect and world view that begin with the 7 year change---and continue with the more profound changes after the 9 yr change.

I really see differences in my dd's world perception, and understanding of logic now that she's 8, but I still don't think she is in any way ready for general tv---and by this I mean commercial tv shows with commercials, videos and movies too. She has just really started reading in the last month, and despite her new found skills, I don't think this puts her closer to more media.

My kids--and by this I mean my 8yo and 5yo--totally cannot handle tv/videos, it turns them into little addictive zombies that only want more and more; it effects every sphere of their being. Their life is very complete and I don't see how adding media would give any improvement.

We do have a tv, and I watch shows and movies; but the children in general do not watch. If they do watch, it is random maybe once/month and content specific--some of a hockey game, cooking show or travel show without commercials. I don't see any show or video or movie that is "for children" that has anything redeeming to offer for W. schooled young children. For us the content is a more major issue than age, but like I said the act of the kids regularly watching anything at all doesn't work for us.

For me the magic number seems closer to 11. By then their reasoning ability, use of logic, and sense of self has changed from the place of early childhood. Of course then I will be worrying more about my dd's girlness/young womanhood and what exactly the mainstream could be saying that is good for her body image.

 

We incorporate a lot of Waldorf into our home. We swore our dd woudn't watch anything til she was at least 2. But then we ended up letting her watch the occasional 20-30 min dvd shortly before she was a yr old. So she'd watch like maybe an hr of "tv" per month. It was usually on times when she was teething or something and just coulnd't fall asleep. She'd be out in a matter of min with a dvd. I know that's not recommended for falling asleep and would never do it long term or even often. But at the time it was just enough to distract her from the pain for just long enough for her to drift off. And it was only after all the other distractions didn't work.

Up until recently she's watched maybe an hr of videos per week. I agree that content is a huge problem. We have a very select few dvd's that she is allowed to watch.

Recently she's watched a lot more as we have been enjoying the Little House on the Prairie series. We all really enjoy them - her included. So for right now she's watching a 45 min show on dvd a few times per week. We watch with her and discuss what's going on and it hasn't affected her play at all - other than that shes likes to pretend to go fishing now like Laura.

I really don't like that she's watching so much now tho - and plan for it to be less in another month when the weather gets nicer and we have more to do.

For us, it's a matter of tryign to keep balance and if there is a season with a bit more - that's ok if it's not affecting her. She spends all day long pretending elaborate things - even pretending things completely out of her imagination with no object standing in to pretend with - so I think right now we are ok.

 

We started having Friday "movie" nights with ds last year, just before he turned 5. We don't have actual television in our house - just content we find and turn on. And our range is very limited. (Mostly "My Neighbor Totoro", "Secret of Roan Inish", a couple of other films like those, and lately "Max and Ruby" dvds - which I'm starting to get a little tired of) I've started checking out documentaries from our library, and we've found some wonderful free video podcasts online - one produced by some divers showing lovely underwater footage.

The only difference I've noticed in ds's play is to incorporate some of the concepts/characters he's seen into his play. I've been a little worried about media viewing stifling his play, but he takes the scenarios he's seen and uses them as a starting point and spins way off into his own stories. Still watching, tho'. I don't like how excited he'll sometimes get when it's time to turn off the video, and plead for a few more minutes - his voice definitely has an edge to it - but he settles back into regular play within a minute or two and seemingly forgets about watching anything. (It probably helps that we have a complicated system involving an Apple TV unit, several stereo components, and 3 utterly confusing remotes, so turning it on himself is not yet an option. Also, we keep the screen covered with a tapestry whenever we're not watching. My darling dh is an audiophile and software engineer who has designed this beautiful and very complex home-theater-ish system, which now is used only about 1/2 hour a week, at low volumes.

)

Since I'm a worrier, I do worry about this level of exposure, though. I haven't started yet, but I want to find something very tactile to do to re-connect him with the natural world after watching. It's dark out afterwards, so walking or playing outside would be minimal, but maybe something like an indoor, tabletop sand play box or planting some seeds in little pots or something.

 

As a Waldorf parent in a school I have to say the hardest for me is when Ds' classmates' parents do not honor this part of the philosophy. Don't think it doesn't go around and come into all of our homes when your children watch TV and Movies, because it does. We all give up a lot for our children to be educated at a waldorf school, and it really chips away at part of the foundation of the class and the trust we all place on the others in the community.

I also fondly refer to it as Kiddie Krack. Not all kids are like this, but I know with mine if they got a little it would only lead to them asking for more and more. It's a drug. It makes our life so much easier than it's just not out an option for them. We do have one in our home, actually two, but they just don't ever expect to see them on (when they're up). I love that my children play from their imagination and not regurgitate what they saw on TV/video. And I'm sad whenever I hear things filter into our home from the media.

I know it's hard hard hard to live in our society and not let it affect them. It's actually impossible where I live unless I just never take them anywhere but school and homes. Shopping centers, buses, streets, and restaurants have media ads everywhere. There is no escaping it. But I think to select a Waldorf education, outside of the home, for your child and to then just ignore or 'fudge' upon the media part is not only a disservice to your child but to every other one you see at school.

Okay, /off soapbox.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melaniee As a Waldorf parent in a school I have to say the hardest for me is when Ds' classmates' parents do not honor this part of the philosophy. Don't think it doesn't go around and come into all of our homes when your children watch TV and Movies, because it does. We all give up a lot for our children to be educated at a waldorf school, and it really chips away at part of the foundation of the class and the trust we all place on the others in the community. I also fondly refer to it as Kiddie Krack. Not all kids are like this, but I know with mine if they got a little it would only lead to them asking for more and more. It's a drug. It makes our life so much easier than it's just not out an option for them. We do have one in our home, actually two, but they just don't ever expect to see them on (when they're up). I love that my children play from their imagination and not regurgitate what they saw on TV/video. And I'm sad whenever I hear things filter into our home from the media. I know it's hard hard hard to live in our society and not let it affect them. It's actually impossible where I live unless I just never take them anywhere but school and homes. Shopping centers, buses, streets, and restaurants have media ads everywhere. There is no escaping it. But I think to select a Waldorf education, outside of the home, for your child and to then just ignore or 'fudge' upon the media part is not only a disservice to your child but to every other one you see at school.

I am not a Waldorf parent, but I am curious about Waldorf education... Is it correct to assume that you don't want my kids in your school if I were to allow them watching tv?

P.S. This is a question to all parents here.

 

Quote:

I am not a Waldorf parent, but I am curious about Waldorf education... Is it correct to assume that you don't want my kids in your school if I were to allow them watching tv?

Speaking for myself: If your children are young like mine, and television/video/movie/media is something you do not wish to give up then that is correct that I do not think it is the right type of school for your family. There is so much more to Waldorf than just the no-media aspect, but if you cannot embrace that part it really makes it hard on those of us who hold it important.

 

I think this is more of a problem now than it was 30 plus years ago when my daughter was at a waldorf school. TV programs are incredibly well-organized at integrating media stuff into every aspect of children's lives.

First the program.
Then the related toys.
Then the books.
Then the packaged foods.
The comic book version.
The clothing.
etc., etc., etc.

Children are targeted consumers from before birth.

So it is very hard for any parents who are trying to resist this tidal wave of buy, buy, buy, own, own, own, stuff, stuff, stuff.

Just on that level it is much harder to create a quiet, non-commercial, safe space for children now than it was back then.

Waldorf schools in the 1970s rarely asked parents to do more than be moderate with media. We were unusual as a no TV family.

I think the times are getting desperate.

It is hard to buy materials for my library that aren't integrated into a media conglomerate marketing plan.

All that said, I don't think the waldorf school my grand children attend takes a really stern stand on media.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deborah I think this is more of a problem now than it was 30 plus years ago when my daughter was at a waldorf school. TV programs are incredibly well-organized at integrating media stuff into every aspect of children's lives. First the program. Then the related toys. Then the books. Then the packaged foods. The comic book version. The clothing. etc., etc., etc. Children are targeted consumers from before birth. So it is very hard for any parents who are trying to resist this tidal wave of buy, buy, buy, own, own, own, stuff, stuff, stuff. Just on that level it is much harder to create a quiet, non-commercial, safe space for children now than it was back then. Waldorf schools in the 1970s rarely asked parents to do more than be moderate with media. We were unusual as a no TV family. I think the times are getting desperate. It is hard to buy materials for my library that aren't integrated into a media conglomerate marketing plan. All that said, I don't think the waldorf school my grand children attend takes a really stern stand on media.

This is slightly straying from the topic, but your post brought up a question that I have had for a little while

I am a very new Waldorf follower who was brought up watching tv..I began raising my children as my mother raised me, and the tv watching began. I have (very recently) realized that I do not want the same for my children as my mother did for me in this area. However, I am really struggling. We have really done well with eliminating the tv..My dd is almost 5 and recognizes the characters etc., the books that she has from before have the tv characters in them. The gifts that she receives from others have the characthers in/on them.. How do you handle this? I am in the process of completely revamping her toys/books, but how do you handle family/friends who do not respect your viewpoints and how you want your children raised? Even at my grandmothers, my dd walks through the door and they change their tv on to a "kids show"

and I just know when birthdays come up, the movie buying and plastic-character toys will begin to stream in..

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mumkenna&lucas The gifts that she receives from others have the characthers in/on them.. How do you handle this? I am in the process of completely revamping her toys/books, but how do you handle family/friends who do not respect your viewpoints and how you want your children raised? Even at my grandmothers, my dd walks through the door and they change their tv on to a "kids show" and I just know when birthdays come up, the movie buying and plastic-character toys will begin to stream in..

It is getting harder as my son gets older, but generally I let those closest to me know the things we like in our home. If we still received gifts I did not want my children to have, I definitely thank the gifter, but then the items disappear. Only recently has Ds noticed, and only with one particular thing. I finally just had to tell him that toys like that do not live in our home. I told him I did not like the looks on the faces or the box, and I thought they were unkind. The person mostly meant well, but those toys do not live in our home. I did buy him something else similiar in exchange for it, that was similiar but more acceptable to me. Obviously I hope not to have that happen too often! If the gifter mails the gifts or gives them ahead and are notorious for totally ignoring whatever we want, my children never see those gifts. They are donated. I think these things deter from the carefully-selected items that we have placed in our children's lives. Sometimes they do stick around for a few weeks and then leave. I don't want my children to feel 'punished' by our choices, but I also know these things (that I'm thinking of in our life) are just junking up their lives. If Ds does have some kind of toy like that and it breaks (thinking of the sad string of remote-controlled pieces of crap he got this holiday season) I do at some point explain to him that is why Mommy does not buy them, they only break very quickly and then he's sad and then they end up as trash or junk.

As for television, our families just know it's not on when we are there. We did not come to watch TV. If there is a situation where others' desires are at stake we will just do something else and generally the other children will want to join in and then the TV goes off. I'm not going to impose our desires on them, just like I wouldn't want them to do it to us. However, if my children are the only children there, it goes off. Honestly, it's totally beyond my comprehension why people invite other children over to play with their children and then they all just get plugged in. I "get" using TV as a babysitter, really it can be a temptation, but when they've got friends over over to play? Huh? What's the point?

I think after a while they just get used to it (okay, my son is, I hope my daughter will too). For example, this weekend we went to a very mainstream party where pretty much every single thing there was unusual to our family. But we love the people and I don't want to not join in their celebrations. My son just knew that we don't eat the candy that came out of that pinata. He had fun participating and then was okay giving it away. He's never had it, so he doesn't know what it's like and didn't make a fuss about not eating any. I quietly thanked but no thanks for the ice cream store gift certificate the host wanted to give to him. My kids did each get a favor of a cartoon-character riddled book. They looked at them on the way home and have not asked for them since. Some child at the local shelter will surely enjoy them more than my kids who have plenty of books already.

With family I think it's okay to just ask them nicely. They, usually, want to make you and your kids happy, just let them know how to do it.

I figure no matter what I do in life my kids are going to end up in therapy, at least I'll know I did what I thought was best.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melaniee I figure no matter what I do in life my kids are going to end up in therapy, at least I'll know I did what I thought was best.

My philosophy exactly.

I'm noticing more and more how many adult aged siblings I know that have completely opposite views of their common upbringing. One liked being pushed to be the best they could be, the other resented the **** out of it. A family moved to Argentina when the children were still in school; one sibling thinks it "ruined her life", the other thinks it was the most amazing time in the world, one that infected her with an adventurous enthusiasm for experiencing as much in life as possible. Four daughters who were each exposed to the same experiences from their mother: lots of games, puzzles, stories and reading, crafts, music, sport...three were happy and generally viewed by others as terribly clever, interesting, accomplished, knowledgeable, whereas the fourth always felt like a schlub tired of trying to be "just like them".

I'm really, really lucky that my grown children only share with me now from the list of experiences they are grateful for ~~ they generously spare me from hearing what's on the other list

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deborah I think this is more of a problem now than it was 30 plus years ago when my daughter was at a waldorf school. TV programs are incredibly well-organized at integrating media stuff into every aspect of children's lives. First the program. Then the related toys. Then the books. Then the packaged foods. The comic book version. The clothing. etc., etc., etc. Children are targeted consumers from before birth. So it is very hard for any parents who are trying to resist this tidal wave of buy, buy, buy, own, own, own, stuff, stuff, stuff. Just on that level it is much harder to create a quiet, non-commercial, safe space for children now than it was back then. Waldorf schools in the 1970s rarely asked parents to do more than be moderate with media. We were unusual as a no TV family. I think the times are getting desperate. It is hard to buy materials for my library that aren't integrated into a media conglomerate marketing plan. All that said, I don't think the waldorf school my grand children attend takes a really stern stand on media.

I guess what I don't understand about this... if my kids are loving, curious, imaginative, grateful, playful, polite, non-demanding, shouldn't all of that matter 1000 times more than whether or not they have watched Dora?.. And if parents at the school are making the kinds of comments people are making here, then I doubt I will find a welcoming community in a Waldorf school.

I embrace nature, I embrace imaginative play, I draw, I paint, I sew with my kid. I love original fairy tales, we read a lot. We are not glued to a tv... It just seems so... wrong to be judged as a family based upon whether on not my kids know the Disney characters vs. what kind of people they are.

I think I misunderstoof Waldorf in the past. I really thought that tv policies were a personal choice respected by the community (I'm not talking about school policies, but rather the general attitude of parents), and not frowned upon or discussed behind those parents' backs.

 

We are down to one movie night every week or every other week, but I'm probably going to drop that as well. We have enjoyed the old Disney movies, but yesterday my kids played Thomasina (which they saw 4 months ago) and remembered the tiniest details. I don't really want tv media living in their heads to such an extent.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oriole I guess what I don't understand about this... if my kids are loving, curious, imaginative, grateful, playful, polite, non-demanding, shouldn't all of that matter 1000 times more than whether or not they have watched Dora?.. And if parents at the school are making the kinds of comments people are making here, then I doubt I will find a welcoming community in a Waldorf school. I embrace nature, I embrace imaginative play, I draw, I paint, I sew with my kid. I love original fairy tales, we read a lot. We are not glued to a tv... It just seems so... wrong to be judged as a family based upon whether on not my kids know the Disney characters vs. what kind of people they are. I think I misunderstoof Waldorf in the past. I really thought that tv policies were a personal choice respected by the community (I'm not talking about school policies, but rather the general attitude of parents), and not frowned upon or discussed behind those parents' backs.

Well, I am not judging you for what you decide to do in your home with your kids. What I don't want is those things coming into my home because that is a choice that we have made for our family. And as such, one of the big reasons that we have selected a Waldorf school. If your child is a classmate of my child's then those things will be coming into my home and taking away the choice we have made for our family. There is no doubt about it. How would you feel about this? And I'm talking about young children.

The best way I can try to describe it would be if your child attended a religous school and let's say a family of a very different Faith, or perhaps Atheist decided for whatever reason to also select that school. Let's say they are very respectful of your school's religion and would never say anything negative nor suggest to their child to either. however they still strongly practice their Faith at home/wherever. This is just part of their family life. Well as children do they interpret things in many ways and now this other child is going around the classroom that you have so carefully chosen for your child and telling them all sorts of things that would lead them to believe their religion is not true, things that oppose what you have taught them or that you don't want them to know about yet. How would you feel about this? Obviously you are not judging them for selecting a different philosophy in their home, but now your young child is coming home filled with opposing ideas and thoughts that are things you do not feel they are ready to process. And you specifically chose this religious school for your child to support your home life and reinforce it.

I hope that helps make it a little more clear what I was trying to say.