I really think it depends on what AP means to you.

Women who follow the "attachement martyring" philosophy (which seems to require that no one but them be responsible for their children, 24/7 and that leaving them with anyone - including a partner - represents a mother's ultimate failure), tend to fall into the camp who extol the virtues of self-sacrificing in the name of AP.

I'm not in that camp. I think that any way you do it, being a parent requires self-sacrifice. At least for the first few years you give up your sleep, your free time, and in many cases, your sense of self. I think this is true whether you are "AP" or "mainstream."

I think that parents can do a lot of the "AP" stuff without feeling as if they are sacrificing more (or everything). A lot of it comes down to having a support system and being willing to take advantage of it.

Women who believe their partners are incompetent or not to be trusted with their own children are going to end up doing a lot more sacrificing than women like me who, sure, nursed on demand, but also took time for myself, knowing that my babies were with their loving other parent.

No matter what you do, parenting is going to result in burn-out to some degree. But I think that results less from the parenting philosophy you subscribe to than from your support system or lack thereof.

 

What Zinemama wrote is more deep than what I would have written but I totally agree with her... However my more simple version looks a bit like this lol....

yes I do think it means more self-sacrafice because it is a sacrafice to put others first before you - and babies who have more needs than us will come first. Not all 'mainstreamers' parent one way - but take for example a mother who perhaps lets her child CIO. That doesnt require as much work as attending to the child does it? Or a mother (I know one who does) who uses threats as dicipline. That simple. In her own words 'you just threaten them to get them to do what you want them to'...this happens instantly. As opposed to the way we try to dicipline - GD whilst trying to maintiain living consensually...this requires alot of work and isnt as simple as just threatening my son!

So yes ...in some respects I do think it is more self sacraficing. But I think the end result is much more rewarding! My son was far more independent at a younger age and we have the odd tantrum here or there. (As opposed to my more 'mainstream' friends for example). I am also positive that we will have a (and do so at the moment) a more strong bond, better relationship, trust, etc in the future if a lot of the 'mainstreamers' I know dont mend their ways.

 

In a word, yes.

 

I believe that the parent/child relationship is symbiotic, not parasitic. Neither is subordinate. Both are benefiting. I have gained significantly (growth and development, and joy) from being in relationship with our child. I feel our child has probably gained as much. Motherhood has not entailed martyrdom, for me. I believe that our needs/wants/desires are not in competition. There are abundant possible paths to meeting our needs, ime.

If the parent/child relationship feels out of balance, (ie. the parent is "sacrificing" or the child is dissenting, resisting, protesting, contrary, "defiant", "obstinate", etc.) the communication of their needs is apparently not being effectively communicated, heard, supported or honored, imo. I believe that mutually agreeable solutions which honor the parent, AND the child's choices can be found.

Seeking those paths has been amazingly rewarding as a mother. I have found that we each prosper in the growth of our connectedness.

Pat

 

yes, it sucks alot out of you.

 

Of course it takes more effort to be an involved parent rather than a detached parent. It takes more research (reading about the No-Cry Sleep Solution, Gentle Discipline, etc) and more patience.

However, it probably takes less time in the long run. I watch my non-GD friends, punish their kids about 20 times a day for doing something my DS learned not to do a long time ago.

Really, it depends on how old your kiddo is. In the infant stage: DEFINITELY, by the time my son turned five I could really tell that all that work paid off. He's been a really easy kid for awhile now.

 

I don't call myself AP but I do most of the "AP stuff" . . .

I feel like doing so has made being a mom easier and caused me to sacrifice less than a lot of the moms I know. Breastfeeding on demand, for instance, makes it easy for us to leave the house on a moment's notice, go pretty much anywhere we want to go WITH the kids, and never have to worry about having/making food. It's also made my kids extremely easy to comfort, and easy to put to sleep in any location. I haven't had to give up any of my prior interests as a parent.

Following my instincts as a mom has made me feel like parenting is pretty easy, actually.

 

I'm not doing AP, and our reasons for not choosing a more AP path is because we have limits as to how much we are wiling to "give" to our kids before our lives and needs are thrown out of balance.

I won't make any claims that I am parenting the "right" way, but I'm satisfied that most of our choices have worked for our family. The reason I didn't BF for a year or more was because I wanted to stop and was feeling done. We did CIO (sparingly, and at older ages) because we needed rest. I didn't enjoy baby wearing (and moreso, the kids didn't do great with it either.)

I have no doubt that if I had followed a more AP path, I would have been more exhausted.

Not that that means others shouldn't pursue it or that it's not a worthwhile goal. I found that reading about AP has influenced my parenting style in positive ways, but my personal balance and comfort zone is not 100% AP.

I try to be a very giving and nurturing and patient parent, while working for a balance that gives me enough breathing room and rest that I feel my needs are also looked after.

ETA to describe our parenting, I feel closest to gentle discipline and giving children independence to explore and experiment. Because I have not many rules or limits, I do think of myself as a "lazy" parent and I think it is easy, but my house is messier for it!

 

I think it definitely takes a lot of energy, but I don't know that it takes more than non-AP parenting. I think I spend more energy on some things, but much less energy on conflict than other parents. It's like I spend positive energy parenting, while others spend negative energy, if that makes any sense.

I think parenting is challenging no matter what you do.

ETA: AP does NOT mean martyrdom. I am not the only one able to meet my child's needs, and I recognize my own needs and try to meet them.

 

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Originally Posted by abac I think parenting is challenging no matter what you do. ETA: AP does NOT mean martyrdom. I am not the only one able to meet my child's needs, and I recognize my own needs and try to meet them.

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I couldn't agree more.

 

My personal view is that if you're starting to feel martyred, you need to look for some help, whether that's relying more on your partner, or friends and family, or hiring some help. The point of APing is that you build up your child's resilience, and that you strengthen your relationship, not that you keep attempting to perform a behavior that's just not successful. It's not more AP to keep tying your child on your front if your back is breaking and the baby's happier in the stroller. It's not more AP to keep the baby in your bed when you both wake up every half hour and you'd both sleep better if you had a crib in your bedroom. At the heart, AP means doing what works for both of you.

 

I do think that AP style requires the parent to be sensitive to their child's needs and desires. Being sensitive to those needs does require some sacrifice. I think that's why my family sees AP as overly indulgent to the child. For them, kids are supposed to blend in with the parents' already existing life.

 

Ha - I was just thinking about this yesterday. I was lying on the floor watching my baby play, and she crawled over to me. We cuddled a minute, then she seemed hungry, so I lifted my shirt. I dozed off a little while she nursed, then she crawled back off to play when she was done. I was thinking, mmm, this is nice, sure glad I don't have a feeding schedule to worry about and/or have to actually become vertical to make a bottle.

So, no, not to me.

Not that AP is EASY, but my non-AP friends have their own challenges.

They weaned very early, and now that their picky 10-month-olds don't always want to eat solids, they're freaking out because they don't know how to get enough nutrition into them. They have huge mealtime battles that suck the joy out of a family dinner.

They use threats that work in the short term, but they work less and less over time as they don't follow through or work very hard on other discipline techniques, so the kids get more manipulative and defiant over time.

Their CIO babies sleep through the night for a while, but then they have to start over every time there's a new tooth, change in schedule, vacation, or illness.

But then, I am one of those non-martyr APers. And I am blessed with a fairly easy-going baby, so maybe I'm not the one to ask.

 

I think a lot depends on your lifestyle and gasp, your and your child's personalities.

But for me it seems like kind of a wash. Yes, BFing took more time in a lot of ways but my brief flirtations with having to sterilize cups and bottles and remember to buy special baby type food at the store made me think that maybe SOME of the time is redistributed. During a growth spurt, BFing is harder, and when your child decides you are a "human teething ring" during teeth. But the rest of the time being able to just go out without worrying about any bottles, etc., was IMO easier.

I won't discuss the 3 episodes of thrush and the one episode of mastitis though - that just sucked.

Babywearing to me is the ultimate in easy, well, once I got the hang of it. I often brought a stroller along to haul gear or just in case, but to me it was the ultimate in sanity-keeping. I could pop my son in the Ergo to do a few chores, or to go for a walk, and chatting up the neighbours and visiting parks with him nestled up against me is just - an amazing, amazing memory now. I loved being able to talk/sing to him while I moved around/got out. And for about 5 months that was how he went to sleep and I had thighs of steel from walking up and down the hill near our house! (He's 2.5 and won't do a back carry, so.)

We used a co-sleeper and side-carred crib until my son was over one and then he came into bed with us and for me all those things were easier to just roll over and check on him/pat him than to get up and go into another room.

Not "sleep training" (CIO) probably has been more of a toll on me in some ways (at 2.5, he still nurses around 2 am, but it's QUICK), but leaving my son to cry would have been really upsetting, especially since I think my son would have had to do it multiple times, and it would have been very adversarial.

For GD, I guess we are at the beginning of that path really but again, I just find it less stressful to take a little more time to do something without it becoming a huge power struggle... err when possible. Babyproofing rather than constantly saying no made things easier, although one day I might like to see some more of my object d'art around... one day.

The whole "leaving the baby" thing was the hardest for me - meaning that I almost went down the wearying road of becoming sole caregiver. But I came to the conclusion around 6 mos after my son was born that if I didn't err get the @#$#$@#$ out of the way sometimes, I was going to be an impediment to my son and husband's bonding. I really think (sorry to sound like a broken record) that there is still a cultural confusion about the P in AP... a lot of people seem to interpret that as THE MOTHER. Now for infants, I think it may be true that there is a difference. But honestly, I think this is a leftover idea from a patriarchical culture that doesn't value childrearing.

So we arranged that my DH would take my son on Saturday mornings, first to a swim class and later just to hang out. My DH started to feel more competent and he and my son developed this amazing relationship. It also grew as I got more okay with leaving them together from time to time (I just posted about this in another thread).

The least officially AP thing I have done is leave my son in pretty much FT daycare, starting around 22 months. It's also the best thing I've done for our family - I have regained a lot of joy in life to share with my son that I had been slowly losing, for a variety of reasons. We found a very GD-focused gentle montessori, and my son has thrived; he's learned other people will meet his needs and in a way I feel like his secure attachment to us has been expanded. Reading up on the roles of alloparents in "the tribe" helped there. Just because I pay my alloparents in money and not in sharing corn and tanned hides doesn't mean they are any less a community for us.

Now that is definitely not for everyone and that's FINE, but I just throw it in there because I had to remember that the goal of AP was never to keep our child home with us forever and ever, but to do our best to run our family in a way that meshed with our philosophy... not to follow some rules at the cost of our family, if that makes sense.

Hm I think I got off topic but I hope all that muddled stuff helps in your thinking.

 

I haven't read the other responses but here I go anyway.

Being AP requires you to be less selfish than you can be if you aren't AP. That doesn't mean you have to be a martyr. But a family member left her 2-month-old to go on a cruise with her husband, and you really couldn't do that kind of thing if you're AP, so it does require different priorities.

Also, a change of attitude about this kind of thing helps. I was 35 when my daughter was born, and it was a huge shock to my system to become a mommy. At first it felt like I'd sacrificed my whole life and everything was terrible. As time has gone on, I see that everything is *different* but different is not terrible. My husband and I used to go out some nights and hang out at bars with friends for hours on end. We simply don't do that anymore, and we did miss the drinking and socializing at first. We honestly don't miss it anymore. We find we like doing things with our daughter better anyway. We were just talking about this the other day and we realize now, looking back, that both pre-baby times and post-baby times are wonderful and fun, but they are very different kinds of wonderful and fun.

So just having a baby at all forces you to make some changes, and AP'ing a baby forces a few more, but neither group of changes has to make you a martyr.

 

i think it does but i also think its worth it as long as you don't get too extreme. I think AP is something you can get carried away with like anything else. I breastfed, co-slept, etc etc. Even tho it was hard, it did feel right. But after awhile I also noticed I was facing severe burnout/depression. So when my ds was 2 and I enrolled him in a montessori preschool 3 mornings a week. I guess that would not technically be AP but it saved me and there is no way I would have been able to have a 2nd child and maintain sanity had I not done that. I guess my point is, everything is a balance. After actually parenting 2 kids, my views have changed from - baby's needs come first to...strive for a balance of baby's and parent's needs. I do believe that some AP parents are too self sacrificing which ironically I think adversely effects the kids. If mama ain't happy....

 

I think it depends on what you mean by sacrifice. I do feel that I probably sacrifice more of my time (and sleep) by choosing to parent the way that I do. However, I feel that my non-AP friends have sacrificed so much more in terms of her relationships with their children. The bond that DS and I share is unmatched by the relationships of any of my non-AP friends with their kids. Not to mention that I would feel that I had sacrificed my own self-respect as a parent if I parented in a way that I know to be hurtful to my son.

 

Well, there are some short term *reasonable* sacrifices for long term gains, is how I see it. However, I am not into martyrdom. While I fully expect we make sacrifices for our kids, this is a marathon, not a sprint. We need approaches that will last us throughout our kids lives, and not have anyone burn out, exhausted and resentful after a few short years.

AP is a philosophy, with a series of behaviors which (usually) reinforce the philosophy. AP is NOT the behaviors. For example, you can NOT babywear and be AP - the reasons for babywearing are to promote attachment and if babywearing doesn't promote attachment in YOUR FAMILY, then it should be ditched as a technique.

This realization makes it a lot easier for us to pick and choose based on what works for us and our kids. More than anything else - any of the 8 behaviors on the AP list - my kids need ME AND DH to be responsive, engaged, and involved with them. And if we cannot be because we are burnt out from doing all the AP behaviors in a quest to be a perfect AP parents, then we have failed to understand the point of AP.

And frankly, I am looking for tools to make my life easier as a parent, and the AP techniques we use do that.

For example, extended breastfeeding - easier for us than bottle/formula b/c my first had a dairy allergy and we never needed to figure out how to make a bottle/buy expensive formulas/keep bottles cold (and I decreased my own cancer risks to boot and lost weight - huzzah).

Co-sleeping b/c we all slept better and we love snuggling with our babies, but I night weaned at 14 months or so and the kids now (4 and 2) go to sleep in their own beds now (though they come in to us most nights). We didn' t CIO b/c we knew that our kids were the "scream for 8 days" kind of kids - there would be some serious trauma with CIO with them, to no ones benefit. I do know others with kids where the crying is clearly a cathartic release of stress - which I wouldn't judge CIO.

Babywearing b/c it makes managing stairs and escalators easier than a stroller (and with two kids, I avoid the double stroller problem) and they love it. My sling made nursing while moving (wandering around a mall or playground) easier. I do have a bad back so I don't feel too guilty about not holding them ALL the time.

Natural childbirth because I wanted to avoid a C-section and decreasing interventions decreased my risk.

etc etc etc

Don't buy into the "mother must sacrifice self in order to be a good mother." Instead, if you are finding that you need to sacrifice yourself, ask yourself WHY you are being asked to sacrifice yourself - and who around you (partner, family, community) are NOT stepping up to help you raise your kids.

I also recommend everyone read "mother nature" by dr Sarah Hrdy. Fantastic book shooting many holes in the motherhood mythos. She was/is an AP mom, but with many good questions about the "naturalness" of some of our expectations.

 

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Originally Posted by siobhang Don't buy into the "mother must sacrifice self in order to be a good mother." Instead, if you are finding that you need to sacrifice yourself, ask yourself WHY you are being asked to sacrifice yourself - and who around you (partner, family, community) are NOT stepping up to help you raise your kids.

Good point!

When I have to sacrifice myself, I try to be conscious "am I doing it because it is truly necessary and important to my child or rather because I feel guilty or just because I read this in a book somewhere"

I also so agree about the marathon vs. sprint analogy. I think over sacrificing catches up with you later down the road.

 

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Originally Posted by zinemama I really think it depends on what AP means to you. Women who follow the "attachement martyring" philosophy (which seems to require that no one but them be responsible for their children, 24/7 and that leaving them with anyone - including a partner - represents a mother's ultimate failure), tend to fall into the camp who extol the virtues of self-sacrificing in the name of AP. I'm not in that camp. I think that any way you do it, being a parent requires self-sacrifice. At least for the first few years you give up your sleep, your free time, and in many cases, your sense of self. I think this is true whether you are "AP" or "mainstream." I think that parents can do a lot of the "AP" stuff without feeling as if they are sacrificing more (or everything). A lot of it comes down to having a support system and being willing to take advantage of it. Women who believe their partners are incompetent or not to be trusted with their own children are going to end up doing a lot more sacrificing than women like me who, sure, nursed on demand, but also took time for myself, knowing that my babies were with their loving other parent. No matter what you do, parenting is going to result in burn-out to some degree. But I think that results less from the parenting philosophy you subscribe to than from your support system or lack thereof.

AP isn't a checklist of things to do. It's about a general philosophy of raising kids in a respectful and loving manner while, at the same time, teaching them to be respectful of others. My goal is, quite simply, to raise compassionate, loving, well-adjusted children.

I don't feel like I'm sacrificing anything to achieve this. Sure, there's some sacrifice in raising children, but this sacrifice applies to all parents save for the grossly negligent or abusive. My style of AP makes me no more of a martyr than my mainstream friends. Perhaps the biggest way I've come about this is to let go of the guilt.

Both DH and I work full-time out of the home. We split baby care evenly, as do we household chores. Due to work schedules, though, DH actually has more time alone with DD than I do. Fridays are their "bonding" days. My DH is a fabulous father and I do not feel one iota of guilt when I'm at work and she's at home with him. I have no problem leaving DD at home with him on the weekends, either, when I'd like to go out and shop or have lunch with a friend.

I give a lot to DD but I do not sacrifice my self to achieve this. During the last year of nursing (DD weaned at 28 mos), I had no qualms about telling DD she couldn't nurse at the moment because I was in the middle of doing something. I still met her needs but she also learned patience and the respect for my needs too. She moved into her own bed in her own room at 1 year because, quite frankly, the all-night nursing sessions were driving me nuts and I wasn't sleeping well. She transitioned just fine and, as I said above, went on to nurse another year and a half.

Now as a toddler, she's gotten challenging in other ways. She's in a phase where she's very rigid about which parent does what. Some days, she wants me to give her a bath. That's fine, except sometimes I'm busy doing something (cooking dinner, cleaning up, sometimes just relaxing, etc). We gently let her know that DH will give her a bath. Sometimes she accepts it, sometimes not. We are always kind and gentle to her but that doesn't mean I'm going to drop everything I'm doing simply because she wants me to do whatever it is. (Things like comforting when hurt or upset are different.)

This balance has worked well for our family. I feel that all of us are getting our needs met in the gentlest way possible. When DD was an infant she got much more of my attention because that was developmentally appropriate, but now that she's a toddler I feel that it's perfectly acceptable to help her learn to integrate our needs into her own.

 

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Originally Posted by Amila In a word, yes.

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In my opinion, No.

Any parent who loves and cares for his/her child will self sacrifice and strive to make the best decisions. I 've been posting on forums for two years now, and I still don't think there is such a thing as an AP parent or a mainstream parent, it's just artificial pigeon holing.

How I went about getting my child to sleep; and for how long; was an interaction, a delicate dance between my perception of where he was developmentally and what was needed in a given circumstance. Now that he's two I can't even remember at what age he slept through the night, or how it came about. It just did. I am convinced that I have sacrificed as much as any mother. I could not BF my son, and I fought tooth and nail to. I am convinced that any extended BF'er did not sacrifice more than I. My child started FT daycare at three months of age. That was the result of a careful balance of research, selection, and care..all of that fed into that decision. I was the primary bread winner in the family, and now i"m a single mom (My ex up and left me for another woman). So no, I dont' think any mom who happens not to use daycare has sacrificed more than I. Her context/situation simply called for a different choice/decision.

I'm not even sure what is meant by AP. I'm a phD in developmental psychology and know quite a bit about infant attachment, but this label still defies my understanding. My prayer is that such designations do not divide mothers. There is a part of me that does not want to care if I'm pigeon holed as a mainstream mother, but the other part of me rebels against that label..because it is a label that glosses over the complexity of who I am and the decisions I have made. I think it encourages prejudgement of others to apply these labels. If someone says to you "my friend is a mainstream mom"; that already evokes preconceived notions of behaviors that are associated with such a label..all of which may be untrue. For all we know, that mom who sleep trained her son may have dedicated blood sweat and tears so that baby could be more rested at night and thus learn more during the day. For all we know she also cloth diapers. I love this site and this forum, but I do not love this label.

 

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Originally Posted by LuckyMommaToo Compared to my less-AP friends, I feel like AP involves a lot of self-sacrifice. Breastfeeding on demand, cosleeping, gentle discipline -- all of these things seem to take a lot more time and energy than the alternative (at least based on what my experience with my group of friends has been).

For me, I breastfed, coslept, wore my baby not only because I knew it was good for my kids, but because I'm an extremely lazy mom. Whenever my baby was hungry, everything was right there... no bottles, no carrying a bag filled with feeding supplies. I coslept because I didn't have to get up in the middle of the night to feed my baby or to comfort them back to sleep. I couldn't imagine the people that were up all hours of the night making bottles and rocking babies back to sleep! I used a sling because it made life so much easier, I could do laundry, I could eat, I could shop and have my boob in easy access and hands free. I wasn't sure how people who didn't use a sling were able to get anything done!

So, IMO, AP is much more selfish and less self-sacrificing than non-AP parenting!

 

hahaha!

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I think of sacrifice in terms of me giving up something I don't really want to give up. I am not making any sacrifices for my children. I am very happy being a stay at home mom, wearing my baby, nursing on demand, cosleeping, snuggling a lot, etc. It makes me happy. No sacrifices at all here.

And, I am lazy, too.

But, I do think this type of parenting is best for my kids, my laziness aside. I look at it like this: I found my calling.

 

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Originally Posted by wemoon For me, I breastfed, coslept, wore my baby not only because I knew it was good for my kids, but because I'm an extremely lazy mom. Whenever my baby was hungry, everything was right there... no bottles, no carrying a bag filled with feeding supplies. I coslept because I didn't have to get up in the middle of the night to feed my baby or to comfort them back to sleep. I couldn't imagine the people that were up all hours of the night making bottles and rocking babies back to sleep! I used a sling because it made life so much easier, I could do laundry, I could eat, I could shop and have my boob in easy access and hands free. I wasn't sure how people who didn't use a sling were able to get anything done! So, IMO, AP is much more selfish and less self-sacrificing than non-AP parenting!

: Seriously, though, I think it's all about personality and your predisposition. For some parents, it's a lot easier to do CIO & scheduling, but I got severely stressed out when I read The Baby Whisperer while pregnant because I couldn't imagine being that organized with just myself, let alone with a baby. Also, I think it's easy to think that other parents have it easier, but I think that parenting is hard no matter how you do it. I think that sometimes it just looks easier from the outside. Also, many parents (myself included every once in awhile) lie about how things are going or what their child does because there's so much pressure to have a baby who sttn, etc.