it is pretty disheartening. i am not sure what to say and the crackdowns are ridiculous because the US wasn't the original home of the ancestors of the people who initiate the laws. there wasn't much border patrol then.

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"Everyone lives in fear of the police stopping you for some minor infraction and then asking for your papers,"

Is this really America?

I don't really have a problem with immigrants from other countries deciding to move back to their home countries, especially if it's for economic reasons (ie: they couldn't make enough money here to support themselves here PLUS families back home, and the separation was no longer worth it.) But the way they're being treated just breaks my heart. How can all these anti-immigration laws even be Constitutional?

 

Doesn't surprise me a bit. DH is an immigrant from Turkey, he is pretty much continually depressed at the fact that his expectations of life here are not being met. We've struggled so hard since we were married to make ends meet, and usually fall short. Mostly, this is due to the fact that he hasn't been able to find a good job with steady income, which itself is mostly due to immigration laws. When we were first married, he wasn't allowed to work. Then he wasn't eligible for financial aid for college, but he could work the crappy job he did manage to get. Then he did manage to get financial aid, but the language barrier was too much of a challenge when he had to work and study at the same time. Now he's trying to get hands-on training with an electrician, and his job dried-up.

It breaks my heart to see him so disappointed at life here. He hasn't seen his family in 5 years. Occasionally, he'll be talking to his brother on the phone and just start to cry. Like none of the struggle is worth it at all.

He's become so disheartened recently, he decided to join the military. That's right - the man who left Turkey to avoid being forcibly drafted, the one who has never shot a gun in his life, the self-described pacifist. The irony is immense.

 

 

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Mexican consular sources in Phoenix say they are seeing a spike in the number of immigrants applying for Mexican citizenship for their U.S.-born children, which will allow them to enroll in schools in Mexico.

Looks like they are filing legal papers with the Mexican Consulate so that their children can legally go to school in Mexico. If they had filed those papers in Mexico before they came here, they would not have the problem. Why are they only following the rules of Mexico and not the United States? They also have to file papers to transfer their household goods to Mexico.

We have the same laws, but they are not enforced. This hurts everyone.

 

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Originally Posted by caned & able Looks like they are filing legal papers with the Mexican Consulate so that their children can legally go to school in Mexico. If they had filed those papers in Mexico before they came here, they would not have the problem. Why are they only following the rules of Mexico and not the United States? They also have to file papers to transfer their household goods to Mexico. We have the same laws, but they are not enforced. This hurts everyone.

how bout you can talk tome about "laws" when the us govt holds up their end of the bargain.

I am an American born and bred. My husband is not. He has EVERY LEGAL RIGHT to be in my country, yet he has not been given his greencard.

All the loans we took to fill out his paperwork, when I was a student...all the important family events he missed because the DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY (fmrly known as the INS) refused to do his paperwork and allow him back into the country without proper documents (tellign us that after 9/11 there is no time limit on when they can get things done...so we just have to wait...even years...even centuries, for all they care.

And then when we shelled out more money for a "travel document" that we shouldn't have had to "buy" because he should have had his greencard and then the FBI LOST his fingerprints but we only foudn that out because I wrote my state senator. And then the copy of the email to her office that we took to the dept of homeland security to prove that the fbi lost the fingerprints and we needed to resend them. and then the dept of homeland security saying that they could not resend his fingerprints becaues the fbi didn't contact them DIRECTLY (and they couldn't contact them because, you guessed it, after 9/11 the department of homeland security is no loner allowed to contact the fbi over fingerprint checks) so we would jsut have to wait another TWO YEARS and if he didn't get his green card by then then we could come back in with this letter and PETITION to have his fingerprints sent again.

Now, if I could have afforded a lawyer, perhaps we could have gotten some help, but what with being a mom/student/work/study student and a husband who was waiting on permission to work (trying to follow the rules by not workign a job "under the table") that was impossible.

Eventually the USA lost me and our two children, as we moved to dh's country where were were given help immediately (financially and otherwise).

Now if we want to visit home (all my family/friends/ EVERYONE!!!) dh will not be allowed in the country. We had to "abandon his case" (by leaving the country without proper documentation, because we can't afford to "buy" it anymore when it should have been free and included with all those fees we threw down the toilet for his greencard) so he won't be allowed in. We were told that he could apply for a tourist's visa but would likely be denied because he had previously had a greencard case and they would think that he would be "sneeking" into the country to live there.

SNEEKING IN?!?!!?!??!?!?!?!?

Hes LEGALLY allowed to live/work/what ever he wants there by US law. But they are not holding up their end of the bargain. What kind of life would he have there without a greencard? NO permission to work. Nothing?

It just sickens me.

I used to feel as you do. Why can't people follow the rules...but not anymore. Not until the US government has fair immigration rules and accountability!

 

I know this is naive, but why can't people just live where ever they want to in this world?

 

b/c they don't *just live*, but they utilize health care services, educational services, infrastructure etc.
Which they do not pay income taxes to support. And sometimes they contribute crimimal activities. Just live is complicated. If someone contributes more than they subtract from a particular place, why can't they live there?

(child of an immigrant answering)

 

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Originally Posted by p.s b/c they don't *just live*, but they utilize health care services, educational services, infrastructure etc. Which they do not pay income taxes to support. And sometimes they contribute crimimal activities. Just live is complicated. If someone contributes more than they subtract from a particular place, why can't they live there? (child of an immigrant answering)

this is a false argument regarding immigration.

almost all immigrants here pay into the tax system via real estate taxes that are paid by them. real estate taxes are included in the cost of the rent. the immigrants pays it to the landlord who then pays it to the tax authority.

almost all, if not all, states have sales tax. this also contributes to the tax system. immigrants are consumers too, they contribute lots of money to our economy, and thusly to our tax system.

many immigrants, without legal paperwork, use "fake" social security system. the ss number may not belong to them, but those SS withholding do end up in the SS system. additionally you can apply for a taxpayer identification number which means that you pay your income taxes under a number similar to a SS number. not all immigrants do this,but some do. these numbers "convert" from being an TPIN (taxpayer identification number) to a SS number once the immigration process is complete.

i am so sorry for your experience jul511riv. its true, goodness forbid that your paperwork get mucked up in any way at all. it can delay your case for years. it took us about 3 years from start to finish to do DP's paperwork. it was really taxing (no pun intended) and VERY expensive. even without the lawyer fees, which we only paid a small portion because i am pretty adept at navigating stuff like that, we paid $1000s of $$ in "filing fees" to the government over the course of those years. the one that would really tick me off was the few hundred dollars we had to pay each year for working papers. totally ludicrous, and a ponzey scam in my opinion. me pay you because of you ineptitude to process my paperwork.

 

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use "fake" social security system

There are people in this country, legal immigrants and citizens, who are living a credit nightmare because their SSNs are used by others and are being taxed on wages they never earned. This benefits no one.

A woman in Northern California discovered and contacted 85 people who were using her number and requested that they cease and desist.

A couple in Tennessee just received a tax bill for nearly $8,000 for money they never earned at a job neither ever had. The wife also received a surgical bill for surgery she never had. Their identity has been stolen and the IRS, credit bureaus, workers' compensation boards and doctors do not care.

How does this benefit anyone? Our country has a very bad record on not protecting its own citizens in this case, let alone allowing employers to exploit the illegal aliens. The US is cultivating a permanent underclass which is racist in nature.

 

Caned I am well aware of all of the problems associated with identity theft. I do not condone the illegal use of SS #s but merely pointed out that this withholding money DOES end up in our tax system. The tax system that pays for all of the benefits we get (or don't get but that is another thread).

My point, which I do not want to be missed, is that it is a FALSE argument that immigrants do not pay into our tax system. They pay in many ways.

Now if we paid just a tad less than 50% of our budget on "defense" we could begin lots of corrections. For one, the racist system that is intent on building a modern form of indentured servitude. Building a credit system that is correctable and not tied to social security numbers (never their original intent anyways). And providing a workable immigrant solution.

 

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Mexican consular sources in Phoenix say they are seeing a spike in the number of immigrants applying for Mexican citizenship for their U.S.-born children which will allow them to enroll in schools in Mexico.

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Originally Posted by caned & able Looks like they are filing legal papers with the Mexican Consulate so that their children can legally go to school in Mexico. If they had filed those papers in Mexico before they came here, they would not have the problem.

Did you miss the part of your quote saying they were filing for their US BORN children? How exactly were they supposed to file papers in Mexico for children born in the US BEFORE they came to the US

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No, I can read, but Arduinna, you are missing my point.

First, they never filed any papers for themselves or anyone in their family else including their Mexican-born children BEFORE they left Mexico in the first place and came here. Why didn't that happen before they came here in the first place? Most people in the world get their papers and affairs in order even if they move to another city.

Second, what is this prohibition in Mexican schools against enrolling foreign-born children? Seems to me in the U.S. we call this illegal, racist, and a denial of civil rights.

Yes, we are different nations. We are a nation of laws. Did you know since 9-11 NO AMERICAN or CANADIAN can drive or fly into Mexico w/o a current passport. That was not the case before. With the backlog in passport app's in the State Department and the DOJ, many Americans cannot travel to their Mexican vacation destination because they will be detained and deported.

Somehow we look the other way for our foreign nationals, and pay them poorly.

 

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Originally Posted by goodcents this is a false argument regarding immigration. almost all immigrants here pay into the tax system via real estate taxes that are paid by them. real estate taxes are included in the cost of the rent. the immigrants pays it to the landlord who then pays it to the tax authority. almost all, if not all, states have sales tax. this also contributes to the tax system. immigrants are consumers too, they contribute lots of money to our economy, and thusly to our tax system. many immigrants, without legal paperwork, use "fake" social security system. the ss number may not belong to them, but those SS withholding do end up in the SS system. additionally you can apply for a taxpayer identification number which means that you pay your income taxes under a number similar to a SS number. not all immigrants do this,but some do. these numbers "convert" from being an TPIN (taxpayer identification number) to a SS number once the immigration process is complete.

To further add to your point, when it comes to undocumented workers the USA also benefits financially. Usually working for less than minimum wage, an undocumented worker may not pay income taxes. However if a family with children living in the USA is legally working for the meager wages most undocumented workers receive, they aren't going to wind up paying taxes either. In fact come April 15th the IRS will most likely be sending a refund check to that family for more $$ than they paid in taxes to begin with. By being off the grid, many undocumented workers add to the economy whilst saving the government millions.

 

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Originally Posted by artgoddess To further add to your point, when it comes to undocumented workers the USA also benefits financially. Usually working for less than minimum wage, an undocumented worker may not pay income taxes. However if a family with children living in the USA is legally working for the meager wages most undocumented workers receive, they aren't going to wind up paying taxes either. In fact come April 15th the IRS will most likely be sending a refund check to that family for more $$ than they paid in taxes to begin with. By being off the grid, many undocumented workers add to the economy whilst saving the government millions.

This may be true to a certain extent, but hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants are sending A LOT of money back to Mexico or other countries outside the US. That hurts the US economy.

 

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Originally Posted by caned & able Yes, we are different nations. We are a nation of laws. Did you know since 9-11 NO AMERICAN or CANADIAN can drive or fly into Mexico w/o a current passport. That was not the case before. With the backlog in passport app's in the State Department and the DOJ, many Americans cannot travel to their Mexican vacation destination because they will be detained and deported. Somehow we look the other way for our foreign nationals, and pay them poorly.

Is this really true? I was under the impression that the passport rules for Mexico for both air and car travel will only come into effect on December 31st, 2007. I also think that the rules for travelling Canada are fairly recent as well (possibly 2006).
I think they've pretty well caught up with the backlog as well, at least that's been my experience.

 

The whole situation is frustrating.

 

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Originally Posted by diamond lil This may be true to a certain extent, but hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants are sending A LOT of money back to Mexico or other countries outside the US. That hurts the US economy.

How does money someone earns themselves that they send to their families hurt the US economy? You may want to do a little research on that. Infact, if all illegal immigrants were deported right now, the south and southwest economy would collapse, but don't take my word for it, there has been pletny of scholarly research done on it by folks like Greenspan and others. Here is one paper I found:
http://dallasfedbackup.org/research/...00/swe0003.pdf

What hurts the US economy is system that has been set up to take advatange of people(ie illegal immigrants) and use the cheap labor to make more profits.

What hurts the US economy are unfair trade agreements that encourage both unfair labor policies here and abroad for cheaper products and services.

What hurts the US economy is doing business in a must have profit NOW, sustainability later attitude.

What hurts the US economy are unsrcupulous lenders giving housing loans to people who truly cannot afford them.

What hurts the US economy is the immigration system that is at least 5-10 years backlogged in processing LEGAL immigrants paperwork, keeping may highly skilled immigrants both from working and living here, and keeping there families in a state of crisis because who knows if they might have to leave the country.

What hurts the US economy is a dinasaur age energy policy that forces consumers to chose between dinasaur age energies instead of being a leader in sustainability in renewable energy(ie job creation, savings for consumers).

Illegal immigrants are here because it is in businesses interest to have a very cheap labor force which will not advocate for themselves because they are illegal. By weilding all the responsibility towards human beings who are breaking laws because they want to better themselves and their families(and their home countries, I know popular belief is that immigrants just want to come and take over, it is not true, most want to return home, with either better job skills or education), you have simply fallen into the red herring trap.

If big business didn't want to take advantage of cheap labor regardless of legality, we wouldn't even be talking about this.

Who really has the power in this situation? The business who has both the power and money to hide from any legal responsibility of hiring an illegal immigrant, or the illiegal imigrant who could lose their whole life, anf their families, if they speak up or get caught?

It's all so reminiscent of the kind of talk when our great great grandparents were coming here and everyone hated the Germans and the Irish and yadda yadda yadda. Same song, just a different time.

 

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Originally Posted by jul511riv how bout you can talk tome about "laws" when the us govt holds up their end of the bargain. I am an American born and bred. My husband is not. He has EVERY LEGAL RIGHT to be in my country, yet he has not been given his greencard. All the loans we took to fill out his paperwork, when I was a student...all the important family events he missed because the DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY (fmrly known as the INS) refused to do his paperwork and allow him back into the country without proper documents (tellign us that after 9/11 there is no time limit on when they can get things done...so we just have to wait...even years...even centuries, for all they care. And then when we shelled out more money for a "travel document" that we shouldn't have had to "buy" because he should have had his greencard and then the FBI LOST his fingerprints but we only foudn that out because I wrote my state senator. And then the copy of the email to her office that we took to the dept of homeland security to prove that the fbi lost the fingerprints and we needed to resend them. and then the dept of homeland security saying that they could not resend his fingerprints becaues the fbi didn't contact them DIRECTLY (and they couldn't contact them because, you guessed it, after 9/11 the department of homeland security is no loner allowed to contact the fbi over fingerprint checks) so we would jsut have to wait another TWO YEARS and if he didn't get his green card by then then we could come back in with this letter and PETITION to have his fingerprints sent again. Now, if I could have afforded a lawyer, perhaps we could have gotten some help, but what with being a mom/student/work/study student and a husband who was waiting on permission to work (trying to follow the rules by not workign a job "under the table") that was impossible. Eventually the USA lost me and our two children, as we moved to dh's country where were were given help immediately (financially and otherwise). Now if we want to visit home (all my family/friends/ EVERYONE!!!) dh will not be allowed in the country. We had to "abandon his case" (by leaving the country without proper documentation, because we can't afford to "buy" it anymore when it should have been free and included with all those fees we threw down the toilet for his greencard) so he won't be allowed in. We were told that he could apply for a tourist's visa but would likely be denied because he had previously had a greencard case and they would think that he would be "sneeking" into the country to live there. SNEEKING IN?!?!!?!??!?!?!?!? Hes LEGALLY allowed to live/work/what ever he wants there by US law. But they are not holding up their end of the bargain. What kind of life would he have there without a greencard? NO permission to work. Nothing? It just sickens me. I used to feel as you do. Why can't people follow the rules...but not anymore. Not until the US government has fair immigration rules and accountability!

Your situation is very typical of dealing with immigration. I want people who are anti-immigrants to really understand that you don't really know how tremendously difficult and expensive it is to do this. They also just doubled the fees for everything to help with the backlog, yet have not hired any extra employees to catch up with their paperwork. People are literally waiting YEARS to get their paperwork processed.

It is also very easy for someone to fall out of status and become illiegal. All it takes is the government to fail to process your paperwork in a timely fashion, maybe you move, you send the paperwork in like you are supposed to, but they haven't processed it, and if you get caught in the crosshairs, you would be considered out of status and illegal, yet you have not done anything wrong.

 

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Originally Posted by KaraBoo I know this is naive, but why can't people just live where ever they want to in this world?

It's not that naive. In fact it is one of the foundations of Adam Smith's theories on economics(he is generally considered the father of capitalism). He felt that a capitalist system could not work if labor was not free to move about where they could get the best wages. We only have half the puzzle working right now.

 

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Originally Posted by KaraBoo I know this is naive, but why can't people just live where ever they want to in this world?

Because we stole other people's stuff and now we don't want to share the rewards. We prefer to let people starve while we cordon off what's 'ours' and feel entitled to hoard resources.

 

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Mexican consular sources in Phoenix say they are seeing a spike in the number of immigrants applying for Mexican citizenship for their U.S.-born children, which will allow them to enroll in schools in Mexico.

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Originally Posted by caned & able Looks like they are filing legal papers with the Mexican Consulate so that their children can legally go to school in Mexico. If they had filed those papers in Mexico before they came here, they would not have the problem. Why are they only following the rules of Mexico and not the United States? They also have to file papers to transfer their household goods to Mexico. We have the same laws, but they are not enforced. This hurts everyone.

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Originally Posted by caned & able No, I can read, but Arduinna, you are missing my point. First, they never filed any papers for themselves or anyone in their family else including their Mexican-born children BEFORE they left Mexico in the first place and came here. Why didn't that happen before they came here in the first place? Most people in the world get their papers and affairs in order even if they move to another city. Second, what is this prohibition in Mexican schools against enrolling foreign-born children? Seems to me in the U.S. we call this illegal, racist, and a denial of civil rights. Yes, we are different nations. We are a nation of laws. Did you know since 9-11 NO AMERICAN or CANADIAN can drive or fly into Mexico w/o a current passport. That was not the case before. With the backlog in passport app's in the State Department and the DOJ, many Americans cannot travel to their Mexican vacation destination because they will be detained and deported. Somehow we look the other way for our foreign nationals, and pay them poorly.

They didn't file papers in Mexico for their US born children before they left Mexico because their US born children, uh... weren't born yet. It's silly to say "they follow Mexican laws but not ours". They follow some of each and break some of each... just like almost everyone I know. Do you actually know anyone who has never broken a law?

Oh... and I don't know about driving or flying but you can walk across the border into Mexico without any trouble.

 

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...their US born children, uh... weren't born yet..

Many of them came with Mexican-born children to the United States without filing any paperwork whatsoever, put them in American public schools, used our Title I benefits, used our health facilities. I live in an area now devoid of hospitals where we once had one every mile and a half in any direction.

They then had children here. Now that the immigrants feel the need to go to their former country, they are filing papers. They need to file papers for the things they are bringing into Mexico. Why only when they are going one way? We do have the same requirement, but our government has no backbone.

I do feel that anyone should be able to live anywhere they want, but I am also a realist. Until the laws are the same everywhere, we need to enforce ours.

As for walking, flying, driving, I know that, have done that, and that is what makes this wave of immigrants different from the previous ones that crossed an ocean, never to return. Americans need a passport when going into Mexico, but for some reason, it does not work the other way.

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Do you actually know anyone who has never broken a law?

Ah, yes the 'two wrongs make a right' argument. Keep your SSN close to you.

 

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Originally Posted by caned & able Many of them came with Mexican-born children to the United States without filing any paperwork whatsoever, put them in American public schools, used our Title I benefits, used our health facilities. I live in an area now devoid of hospitals where we once had one every mile and a half in any direction. They then had children here. Now that the immigrants feel the need to go to their former country, they are filing papers. They need to file papers for the things they are bringing into Mexico. Why only when they are going one way? We do have the same requirement, but our government has no backbone. I do feel that anyone should be able to live anywhere they want, but I am also a realist. Until the laws are the same everywhere, we need to enforce ours. As for walking, flying, driving, I know that, have done that, and that is what makes this wave of immigrants different from the previous ones that crossed an ocean, never to return. Americans need a passport when going into Mexico, but for some reason, it does not work the other way. Ah, yes the 'two wrongs make a right' argument. Keep your SSN close to you.

I would love to see your sources for all the resources that immigrants use without paying taxes.

Also, do you only find the immigrants responsibility in this? I haven't seen you say one word about the companies that encourage and take advantage of this situation. You are totally right, two wrongs do not make a right, so what responsibility do companies have??

 

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Originally Posted by caned & able As for walking, flying, driving, I know that, have done that, and that is what makes this wave of immigrants different from the previous ones that crossed an ocean, never to return. Americans need a passport when going into Mexico, but for some reason, it does not work the other way.

Americans do NOT need passports to enter Mexico. They need a passport to enter or re-enter the US.

At the US border there are two signs: "Keep out" and "Help Wanted".