My eldest started non-Suzuki piano at almost-6. I was firmly committed to the Suzuki approach (and she was already doing Suzuki violin) but like you we found no Suzuki piano teachers in the area. We did, however, find a teacher who was receptive to the idea that some children, especially at young ages, learn well by ear. While there were "books" from the very first lesson, it was okay with her if Erin progressed mostly by hearing and watching demonstrations, rather than by reading. After the first couple of primers (which she blasted through thanks to her previous violin training) she was moved into a program which, although traditional in focus, had accompanying CDs of music (the Royal Conservatory of Canada graded "Celebration Series" for piano, starting with Grade 1, which is actually about primer level 3).

I also encouraged my daughter not to discard every piece she learned as the moved along. We kept a list of "review pieces" from her primer books, up to a dozen or so of her favourites, which she continued to play almost daily long after she'd moved on to more complex stuff. And of course I worked with her during her practicing at home just as a Suzuki parent would. Her teacher was more accustomed to the "drop-em-off-and-pay-the-bill" style of parental support that most of her piano students got but again was very receptive to other ways of doing things.

I think that these three things (the listening to reference recordings, the continued review of well-mastered repertoire and the involvement of a parent in home practicing) helped her learn to play more than just notes. That meant that she was really expanding her musical skills in the Suzuki way, even though she was learning with a traditional teacher and wasn't reading music at all well. (Eventually her reading caught up to, and even surpassed, her playing level. It just took time, because she was young and advanced and not quite ready to read at first.)

Hope this helps!

Miranda

 

My husband is a piano teacher, non-suzuki although he does ear training with many kids. He teaches all ages and mostly waits until they are 6 to take them but he does use a lot of books and actually finds that doing all ear training without reading notes from the books causes children to his a real wall about a year into lessons when they try to read notes but are not skilled at it and the music becomes harder to do by ear. He encourages book work from the beginning because he finds this results is much bettwe students (happier, more skilled, more engaged, longer-term, etc).

Find someone playful - that is my strongest recommendation. My husband plays note tag, he does note drawings, he shows them the inside of the piano and he is wildly loved by children and adults alike and has a huge waiting list because of it.

Good luck and happy playing

 

Well, that's exactly the kind of perspective I was looking for - thanks so much to the both of you for your time and thoughtful answers. . .

Sue

 

Our kids take lessons from a Suzuki piano teacher, and she is considered one of the best in our state (awarded best teacher a few years back). I think she is able to lable herself a Suzuki teacher because she went through the training, but that does not mean non-Suzuki teachers can't also teach by ear. In fact, our teacher does not do Suzuki exclusively, and she insists on her students practicing sight reading, which my dyslexic daughter finds difficult. (My kids have very good musical ears, so the teacher is trying to make sure they don't depend on that too much.)

One challenge with Suzuki is the parent involvement, but you are probably aware of that. The parent is expected to be very involved in the lessons and practice, so it is not for the lazy or time-constrained.

Our teacher is extremely patient, like a saint, but not especially playful. She's a bit formal. I appreciate the pp's comments about adding playfulness, as I will try to incorporate those ideas at home!

 

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he does use a lot of books and actually finds that doing all ear training without reading notes from the books causes children to his a real wall about a year into lessons when they try to read notes but are not skilled at it and the music becomes harder to do by ear.

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The same can happen with Suzuki violin if the teacher is not conscientious about it, there's a misconception (even among some teachers) that there should be NO reading at all for the first several years.

Things are a bit different with piano though, IMO primarily for technical reasons, and this is also I think why there are far fewer Suzuki piano teachers.

First of all, the Suzuki repertoire books were designed by Dr Suzuki for violin students. The piano books basically take the violin books and have you play the pieces on the piano instead. What makes sense as an appropriate introduction to different techniques and challenges on the violin does NOT translate to appropriate introductions on the piano!

So, 'basic' technical skills might not be properly covered early on, and 'too advanced' technical skills might be expected too soon.

In many ways, the piano is a more difficult instrument than the violin -- speaking in terms of the technical demands on a young child's body. The keys are heavy and a different kind of finger dexterity is required. A 5yo who can do fairly complex things with a violin might only be able to do basic things on a piano, just because of physical limitations.

My (admittedly limited) exposure to kids who have done Suzuki piano, is that these kids do not possess good technique. Their hands and arms are tense, they don't know how to play 'well' -- they only know how to mimic. They may have good ears and musicality (maybe) but they are going to hit a wall -- not just in terms of READING but in terms of fundamental physical skills.

While I do agree that a child's playing on an instrument should not be limited by their reading ability (or lack thereof), my experience is that the majority of the time, the two go quite hand-in-hand. Their MUSICAL ability might in fact exceed their TECHNICAL ability, and IMO I think the greater danger is pushing their bodies too quickly too soon -- it's too much of a risk for setting up 'bad habits' that are incredibly difficult to 'undo' years down the line.

There are lots of great programs out there -- book-based heh -- that have a very gradual introduction to note-reading, intended for young non-readers to be able to understand. Teachers' duets and accompanying CD's make it musically "interesting" for the student, even when their part is very 'simple' to our ears.

I still clearly recall the first piece in my first piano book -- C-D-E-D-C-D-E, C-D-C-D, C-E-C... even with no duet, to my 8yo mind it was a rich, complex piece of music, full of excitement and drive in the melody... be careful not to confuse our ADULT ideas of "interesting music" with a CHILD's ideas.

Anyway, I've kind of rambled so I hope this makes some sense lol... I always use books with my younger beginners, they love having something to carry around too lol... and a good teacher will be sure to encourage their ear development and technical development if their reading is 'lagging' at all...

FWIW I'm a professional piano teacher (13 years) with a Master's degree in music, currently President of the local branch of the Ontario Registered Music Teacher's Association.

 

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Originally Posted by tankgirl73 The piano books basically take the violin books and have you play the pieces on the piano instead.

That's really not true beyond the first couple of pieces. I agree the rhythmic Twinkle variations are an odd choice for first experience on the piano, but within two or three pieces, the piano repertoire has diverged from the violin almost totally, with the exception of the Anna Magdalena Bach notebook Minuets which were originally for keyboard, not violin, anyway.

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Originally Posted by tankgirl73 A 5yo who can do fairly complex things with a violin might only be able to do basic things on a piano, just because of physical limitations.

I'm curious if you play the violin and/or are involved with little violin beginners? Because I play both violin and piano, and have kids who study both, and I would actually say the opposite, no question. I think we tend to see more impressive advanced teeny weeny little violinists in large part because note-reading is less essential for progress in the early years on violin, not because the physical demands of the instrument are less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankgirl73 While I do agree that a child's playing on an instrument should not be limited by their reading ability (or lack thereof), my experience is that the majority of the time, the two go quite hand-in-hand.

It's probably true that the two go hand in hand the majority of the time when students begin at 6 or 7. When they begin at 3 or 4 or 5, the majority will demonstrate a 'lag' in reading ability by (not surprisingly) two or three years. I have a 4yo daughter who is playing violin at a solid Grade 3 level whose reading ability is still at the violin equivalent of five-finger patterns of quarter notes and half notes.

Miranda

 

My dd started this fall (she was 5.5) with a non-suzuki teacher. She loves it and was able to read when she started, which to her, makes her WANT books. That's how she learns- so she's doing well with that approach. My dd #2 however, is only 3 and although that's still a few more years away I think she'll need more of the suzuki approach if we want to start piano then. Each child is sooo different.

 

I was so excited to see a Suzuki thread. My background - a Suzuki violin teacher with a Masters. I studied Suzuki teaching with one of the founders of the American Suzuki Assoc. She was one of the few who went to Japan in the early 60's to observe and learn from Dr. Suzuki (Louise Behrend if you are interested).
I am a violinist, not a pianist (only accompany my students).

A few thoughts about the method - some of this info may not be accurate for present-day Japan (when it comes up).

Dr. Suzuki spent 10 years putting books 1-4 together. Most kids would have to quit the violin at a certain age in order to study to get into college, etc. He felt the Bach Double was a nice "goal" to get to before that. He took certain rhythms/bowings from that piece, and worked backwards. The Twinkle rhythms all come from there. That's why it doesn't really translate as well to piano. Each piece gets you closer to the Bach Double (a violin piece). The other instruments were added, but for commonality, the pieces started the same. For other stringed instruments, they generally add pieces. There is an extra cello book that floats around certain teaching circles. The Bass books were put together by a professor here in my hometown (Dan Spain). Viola, goes with violin generally.

The piano teachers seem to be split on the hopping, not hopping thing. We have smaller violins to use for the little ones. Pianos are the same adult size.

Music reading. In Japan, this was taught as a general subject in school. When they started teaching the method here in the US, they realized right away it didn't translate as well. They started mimicking the early music reading experience to make up for it. So, it's not NO reading. It's that their playing is far ahead of their music reading for a while. Just like you speak far ahead of your book reading for a while. It then catches up if taught properly. If you only could speak what you read - just imagine! Same for violin. We don't hold them back technically to what they can read right away. imo, they end up being stronger music readers because they also "hear" what they are reading.

For piano - I think it's a mixed bag. You have to really get someone that knows what they are doing, imo. They are out there. We had some amazing pianists at the Suzuki school in NYC that I taught at.

 

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