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Originally Posted by drifter I was just wondering if babies remember circing either consciously or subconsciously.

There was a study done on this. Check out these links:
http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio/
http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/taddio2/

 

Both Paul Fleiss and Ron Freeman in their books on circ (What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Circumcision and Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma) have case studies and anecdotes about babies/children/adults remembering the pain and trauma of circ, whether consciously or subconsciously. Babies who are circed have a much greater pain response to vaxes than babies who aren't - circ can permanently affect neural pathways.

And there are lots of stories of people who can recount details of being born under hypnosis - so why not circumcision, too? The mind can and does remember events, especially traumatic ones, whether or not we can recount them.

I think of all the stupid reasons to circ, the one about doing it at birth "so the baby won't remember" is one of the stupidest of all. Just because a baby might not be able to articulate memories of circ later, inflicting pain on a trusting newborn who expects only love and care has got to be one of the cruelest and most inhumane things we as humans do to our babies.

 

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Originally Posted by Quirky I think of all the stupid reasons to circ, the one about doing it at birth "so the baby won't remember" is one of the stupidest of all. Just because a baby might not be able to articulate memories of circ later, inflicting pain on a trusting newborn who expects only love and care has got to be one of the cruelest and most inhumane things we as humans do to our babies.

ICAM!! It's sick what some people do to their children.

 

You know the repressed memory theory that came out in the eighties? People were claiming to remember suppressed memories of sexual abuse. Probably the same people who believe that think that babies won't remember being circumcised.

 

I've heard several stories from women at sites such as this but the one that hit me the hardest was when a mother told of her 3 year old pulling the shaft skin up and over the glans much as would be in an intact child. Her son had never seen an intact child or adult and thus would not know what they would look like. She was puzzled about this and asked him what he was doing. He looked at her straight forward and said "I'm fixin' it." Where would he have gotten that?

Frank

 

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Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking I've heard several stories from women at sites such as this but the one that hit me the hardest was when a mother told of her 3 year old pulling the shaft skin up and over the glans much as would be in an intact child. Her son had never seen an intact child or adult and thus would not know what they would look like. She was puzzled about this and asked him what he was doing. He looked at her straight forward and said "I'm fixin' it." Where would he have gotten that? Frank

that is what I remember doing many times over many years. But I never new what circing was until much later and then I still never had the thought it might be something like subconsious until recently.

sorry - this is drifter again - I posted under my wifes name

 

I believe very much that babies remember traumatic experiences. Read "Babies Remember Birth" if you can get a copy. I am forgetting the author's name right now. It is interesting.

I believe that babies are also affected by experiences prior to birth as well.

 

Scott:

I think some males and possibly most males instinctively know what their penis should be like and the child in my post and your experience shows clear evidence of that. Probably by the time they become old enough to realize it, many go into a state of denial and force those instincts into the back corners of the mind. However, some retain memories such as yours into adulthood and clearly understand what was happening. I believe that if foreskins could be miraculously instantly replaced that the man would know exactly what to do with it just as instantly. Something that shocked me was that after restoration, my ex-GF knew instinctively what to do with it even though she had never seen one and required no instruction other than to be gentle.

I have some memories of doing things and wondering things but have not been able to resurect exactly what I was doing or what I was thinking. I do remember that I saw a friends intact penis at about 7 years old and it was quite puzzling and disturbing to me and I remember closely inspecting my own about that time. I do remember having "stitch tunnels" which is a complication of older style circumcisions and wondering what they were and why they were giving me problems.

Frank

 

absolutely. This is one of the reasons I am so glad I never circ'ed or never will. I don't want my child to hate me, like I know I would hate my mom if I was a boy and if I was circ'ed.

 

...my dd had surgery when she was 8 mos old. Years later, she recounted a shiveringly accurate account of the proceedure--things we wouldn't have talked about, and she wouldn't have known without remembering them.

Now, I know circ is done much earlier than 8 mos, but she remembers these things even having been under anesthesia. (Of course, the docs told us she wouldn't remember a thing.) It would not surprise me in the least if boys remember circ.

 

Joan, I don't doubt for a moment that your dd's recounting is genuine rememberance.

If babies can hear in utero during the last few months of gestation, and you read to them the same story and you read the same story to them as newborns when they are fussy....and they calm down immediately....do you think that response comes from any sort of memory? I do. If babies can remember or at least make associations as newborns then I am certain that they can remember circ.

I have a wild story. My sister has two children. When her boy was about 3 he asked her a question. She does not remember exactly what the question was but the answer to him was "Yes, when you were in my belly." He nonchalantly said "oh yeah, I remember that." and she asked him what he remembered. He told her about how warm and nice it was there and that he liked it. She was blown away!

 

I think their body remembers it. My dd suffers from severe reflux and she suffered terrible pain for 3 mos. before she was dx and treated properly. Even though it's been 6 mos. since that terrible time, she still is afraid to eat by mouth. She is super sensitive to any kind of pain, and she has been dx with Sensory Integration Dysfuction. SID runs in dh's family but she has a very bad case of it because the pain of the reflux actually affected how her brain processes information. Oh, and she had high b/p because of the pain for awhile, too.

So yeah, I think even if their mind doesn't remember it, their body and subconcious does.

BTW I remember nursing on my mom's breast. I remember looking up and seeing the underside of her chin, and her face looking down on me. When I told my mom about it later she didn't believe me because I was weaned at 6 mos. old.

Darshani

 

My now 4yr old daughter was born w/ complex heart defects. (if you're interested you can read her story here: http://tchin.org/portraits/megan-3.htm )

But, *anyway* about 6 months ago we were talking about how sick she was as a newborn & she piped up and said, "I remember when you were crying mommy." and I said "when was that" and she said "when you were pushing on my chest and I was watching you and my heart was broken"

Right after we got her home from the PICU (she was about 4m old) she arrested at home. I had to do chest compressions/CPR on her until the lifeflight helicopter & local ambulances arrived. I was bawling my eyes out because I was wondering if after all we'd been through how could she die now?

So, yes, I strongly believe that they remember things. She once told me how much that "tube in the side of her chest hurt" (a chest tube).

I'm not sure exactly *how* they remember it, but they do remember some things.

 

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Originally Posted by acrathbun My now 4yr old daughter was born w/ complex heart defects. (if you're interested you can read her story here: http://tchin.org/portraits/megan-3.htm ) But, *anyway* about 6 months ago we were talking about how sick she was as a newborn & she piped up and said, "I remember when you were crying mommy." and I said "when was that" and she said "when you were pushing on my chest and I was watching you and my heart was broken" Right after we got her home from the PICU (she was about 4m old) she arrested at home. I had to do chest compressions/CPR on her until the lifeflight helicopter & local ambulances arrived. I was bawling my eyes out because I was wondering if after all we'd been through how could she die now? So, yes, I strongly believe that they remember things. She once told me how much that "tube in the side of her chest hurt" (a chest tube). I'm not sure exactly *how* they remember it, but they do remember some things.

Amanda, your post touch me so much! I am crying now. How scary!

To answer the OP, I do believe that we retain trauma subconciously and according to these stories conciously!

 

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Originally Posted by acrathbun My now 4yr old daughter was born w/ complex heart defects. (if you're interested you can read her story here: http://tchin.org/portraits/megan-3.htm ) But, *anyway* about 6 months ago we were talking about how sick she was as a newborn & she piped up and said, "I remember when you were crying mommy." and I said "when was that" and she said "when you were pushing on my chest and I was watching you and my heart was broken" Right after we got her home from the PICU (she was about 4m old) she arrested at home. I had to do chest compressions/CPR on her until the lifeflight helicopter & local ambulances arrived. I was bawling my eyes out because I was wondering if after all we'd been through how could she die now? So, yes, I strongly believe that they remember things. She once told me how much that "tube in the side of her chest hurt" (a chest tube). I'm not sure exactly *how* they remember it, but they do remember some things.

OMG mama, you just made me cry

I am so sorry you went through that, as a mother, I cannot imagine how you felt!

 

I'm so sorry. I really didn't mean to make you both cry. But, if I think too hard about it myself, I end up in a puddle

I get so angry when I hear people make comments about "oh, s/he's just a baby & won't remember" whether it has to do w/ circ, CIO, medical problems, whatever. Maybe they don't always remember it on a cognitive level, but somewhere, deep down, they know.

 

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Originally Posted by Frank I've heard several stories from women at sites such as this but the one that hit me the hardest was when a mother told of her 3 year old pulling the shaft skin up and over the glans much as would be in an intact child. Her son had never seen an intact child or adult and thus would not know what they would look like. She was puzzled about this and asked him what he was doing. He looked at her straight forward and said "I'm fixin' it." Where would he have gotten that?

He still does this 3.5 years later.

I couldn't help but notice at a recent bath that he can get the skin to "stay" for a bit, just enough to cover the scar.

 

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Originally Posted by Joan Years later, she recounted a shiveringly accurate account of the proceedure--things we wouldn't have talked about, and she wouldn't have known without remembering them. Now, I know circ is done much earlier than 8 mos, but she remembers these things even having been under anesthesia. (Of course, the docs told us she wouldn't remember a thing.) It would not surprise me in the least if boys remember circ.

I know exactly what you mean. My son described his circ with a "shiveringly accurate account." I imagine the memory fades with time mostly because of the shock and confusion over being treated this way - and it's not quite something that can be discussed in the sandbox, iykwim.

 

You know what's funny....

I was born 9 weeks early. I had surgery at 2 days old - remomval of dead intestines. (Not all but a lot of my large intestine.) I don't remember that, but a few years ago I was in the shower and had a very vivid physical memory- almost like a thought of how this "just was"- of being able to breathe in water. Not like a fish, but just it was okay to breathe- how that felt to my body. Of course, I couldn't REALLY try it, but it was like I wanted to because it seemed so natural. (Now you're gonna think I'm loony tunes!)

I also have the same sort of physical memory of being on a respirator. Now, granted, I was on one just a year ago when I had surgery, but this was before that. I had some procedure done when I was 4 or 5 and I vividly remember getting the gas mask put over my face and fighting it and having them force the wretched thing down on my face... At any rate, this physical memory isn't concrete like that. Its just a feeling. Like my lungs hurt. Like it takes a lot of effort to breathe. I do have asthma, but this has nothing to do with that. That's a fairly recent thing (since I was 16 and after). This physical memory may be from when I was on a respirator at birth or possibly connected to the fact that I had pneumonia at the same time. I can't say.

And one more and then I'll quit...

I had my lip sewn up at age 4 or 5. THAT I remember vividly. Being strapped down- the feeling like I had something really really heavy on me (I thought it was the xray apron but read on), the needle coming at my face, being very scared.... couldn't move.... huge wide stainless steel table. My parents both tell the account of that time- I actually remember falling and splitting my lip.... Anyway they said I screamed bloody murder- I don't remember screaming. I do remember when it was all over getting off the table and the doctor trying to help me down and handing me a sucker. I remember looking at him and thinking "You're trying to be nice to me now? How ingenuine! You just did THAT to me!" Well, not in those terms, but the sentiment was there.

Back in 2000 or so, I was working at the NOCIRC booth at the Art Fair as I usually do, and my mom came up to the booth. She'd been wandering the fair and knew I was working there and came by to say hello. Well first thing she says isn't "hi" but she points behind me and says "They put YOU on one of those when they sewed up your lip!" What was she pointing to? A Circumstraint, of course!

 

A few people told me that my son wouldn't remember the circumcision if I did it on day 8, almost as though that was a great reason to do it, even if I didn't believe in it. They were in faux shock saying, "Well, if you do it now at least he won't remember it."

My thing is, how could he forget it? Even if he doesn't have any recollection of the pain or trauma (which I'm not saying is the case, esp. after reading all the previous posts in this thread), won't he remember every time he sees his penis? Even if he's remembering the thought of his parents' letting him be traumatized, instead of having an actual memory of trauma. He's never going to forget that something was taken away from him without his consent.

And is that a valid argument for wrongdoing? If the victim doesn't remember or isn't aware, does that make it ok?

Of all the arguments I heard, that wasn't the silliest, but it was one I had the most trouble believing someone who was supposed to love my child would say.

Take care!

 

Last week I had the opportunity to chat with a psychologist who was doing a workshop on communication/conflict resolution in the workplace.
I asked her if RIC would influence the level of violence in an adult. She said that the memory of being circ'd would be buried in one's subconscience, and that most circ'd men would not be more agressive because of it. I also asked if my irrational fear of doctors might be due to RIC. She suggested maybe it was due to some other trauma later in childhood, but when I said that I could not think of one, she said it was possible.
It seems from the observations above that indeed some children do remember their circmcisions with terrifying clarity. Sure makes one think !!

 

I really think they do.

When my son was 3 weeks old I was trying to cut his fingernails and I accidently snipped his finger. He looked at me like "how could you?" and started crying. He is 2 years old and to this day he will NOT let ME cut his fingernails. Only my dh. I think he remembers. If he even remembers such a small incident, I can be sure that babies that are strapped down and cut in a much more painful and scary manner, would remember as well.

 

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When my son was 3 weeks old I was trying to cut his fingernails and I accidently snipped his finger. He looked at me like "how could you?" and started crying. He is 2 years old and to this day he will NOT let ME cut his fingernails. Only my dh. I think he remembers. If he even remembers such a small incident, I can be sure that babies that are strapped down and cut in a much more painful and scary manner, would remember as well.

YES! My son is the same way. Except, I cut his about 3-4 times. He still is sensitive on his middle finger and that is the one that was cut.

He is 3.5 and is just now getting to the point where he will let me do it. I usually have to coax him though.

 

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had a very vivid physical memory- almost like a thought of how this "just was"- of being able to breathe in water. Not like a fish, but just it was okay to breathe- how that felt to my body.

This is a recurring dream of mine...I never made the connection that it might be memories of life in the womb.

 

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Originally Posted by rockerbabysmom This is a recurring dream of mine...I never made the connection that it might be memories of life in the womb.

Cool! I was born 9 weeks early so if that has anything to do with it I don't know, but its weird how a thread like this can trigger my memory that triggers yours.